infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 8 2005, 11:55 AM'] Hate is usually grounded in fear. What are you afraid of? [/quote] issues that i feel are impossible to deal with.........i also feel god wont fix them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:18 PM'] issues that i feel are impossible to deal with.........i also feel god wont fix them [/quote] God can fix them if you allow him. But see the thing is, you need to be open to the possibility that he does exist. Can you be so sure he doesnt exist? If you set your mind to think that he doesnt and the whole world is proof against him, then that is the only way you will think. Same goes for proof for his existence. You need to be open to all possibilities, or the proof you need will never be clear to you when you do get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:16 PM'] We can prove his intentions - his own words. He gave them to his followers. His followers wrote letters to cities and people, and told them about it. And you can prove the Father only if you believe that the intention of Jesus was true. [/quote] ones word is not proof of anything..........people tell the truth and they lie. so really in order to prove that there is a god.........you must first believe in him? there is a gap in logic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:22 PM'] ones word is not proof of anything..........people tell the truth and they lie. so really in order to prove that there is a god.........you must first believe in him? there is a gap in logic here. [/quote] Yes people lie. But why would he lie when he was crucified for it? And for proving him, it depends on what kind of proof. You first said the father. In order to prove the father, you must believe that the son was speaking the truth. In order to believe that, you must be atleast open the possibility that he was speaking the truth. Dont sent you mind to looking for objections against it, but rather weigh them to the evidence for his truth. Look at it this way - if it were not true, then the apostles made up a big story which got them killed, crucified, and fed to the lions. This story killed many faithful. It also was enough for alternative thinkers to rebel against the rest and face burnings and excecution for. Do you really think that a myth could do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 03:54 PM'] One thing - can you be so sure there is not a God? [/quote] no........nothing presupposes nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 04:51 PM'] Don't you think you're putting a lot of faith into your irreligious view of things? I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion? I mean, in our modern society, we frown on religion and treat it as a pariah, but let's look at things scientifically. Either something made the Earth (or someone), or it made itself, through a series of random coincidences. Either way, we have little to no evidence on which of these two possibilities is correct. Leaving Catholicism out of things for the moment, why do you find the second argument more convincing than the first? [/quote] i dont think the creation of the universe and planets is very important. They may have very well always existed for all we know. The important thing to focus on is the beginning of life. There is no such living form that always existed. Therefore, there is a beginning and an end to all life. knowing this.......i would put my money down on a creator (a cause). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 06:07 PM'] That I know. I'm just having a talk. [quote name='fidei defensor']We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist.[/quote] No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine. [/quote] its not a question of belief........its a fact.........a man named jesus of nazareth did in fact exist. Just look in the dictionary. The bible is not the only thing that says that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:26 PM'] Yes people lie. But why would he lie when he was crucified for it? And for proving him, it depends on what kind of proof. You first said the father. In order to prove the father, you must believe that the son was speaking the truth. In order to believe that, you must be atleast open the possibility that he was speaking the truth. Dont sent you mind to looking for objections against it, but rather weigh them to the evidence for his truth. Look at it this way - if it were not true, then the apostles made up a big story which got them killed, crucified, and fed to the lions. This story killed many faithful. It also was enough for alternative thinkers to rebel against the rest and face burnings and excecution for. Do you really think that a myth could do that? [/quote] yes, you got a bunch of people like this who live today. particularly in primitive parts of the world. Tribes sacrifice human beings to gods. These people who are being sacraficed are dying for what they believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:48 PM'] yes, you got a bunch of people like this who live today. particularly in primitive parts of the world. Tribes sacrifice human beings to gods. These people who are being sacraficed are dying for what they believe. [/quote] Yes, but their reasoning for it is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:50 PM'] Yes, but their reasoning for it is different. [/quote] we still havent given any reason that jesus was who he said he was. it all boils down to believing in what he said. i dont see any difference in these african tribal sacrifices compared to what we call martyrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:02 PM'] i dont see any difference in these african tribal sacrifices compared to what we call martyrs [/quote] Tribals sacrifice for fear that their god/s with strike them down if they dont. Martyrs die because they dont fear death or persecution because of what they believe. Their belief is stronger than any fear or death. It is like if you were a firefighter and you knew you had to go into a burning building to save someone. You know you could die, but you choose to save the other person instead of worrying about youself. Not quite the same thing, but its a similar concept. I suppose you could say a tribal was sacrificing for the sake of his peers, but its still not the same. A martyr is dying because he/she knows God will be greater than the suffering he/she will endure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:22 PM'] Tribals sacrifice for fear that their god/s with strike them down if they dont. Martyrs die because they dont fear death or persecution because of what they believe. Their belief is stronger than any fear or death. It is like if you were a firefighter and you knew you had to go into a burning building to save someone. You know you could die, but you choose to save the other person instead of worrying about youself. Not quite the same thing, but its a similar concept. I suppose you could say a tribal was sacrificing for the sake of his peers, but its still not the same. A martyr is dying because he/she knows God will be greater than the suffering he/she will endure. [/quote] this is yet another similarity between chrisianity and any other religion. You said that these tribal people made human sacrifices out of fear that their god would strike them down. Doesnt christianity say that we should fear the wrath of god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:34 PM'] this is yet another similarity between chrisianity and any other religion. You said that these tribal people made human sacrifices out of fear that their god would strike them down. Doesnt christianity say that we should fear the wrath of god? [/quote] In a way, yes. I am am not in the position to fully answer that though. I would suggest you go to the Q & A board and ask about what we mean by fear of the Lord. I do know this - the Fear Christians have of God and the fear pagan tribals had for their god/s are not the same concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yiannii Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 I'm sorry I haven't read through the whole discussion but I was wondering if any sources have been provided for Semalsia's arguments? Because if no sources have been provided then really the objections are weightless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Curt F.' date='May 7 2005, 11:11 PM'] What I meant was how can you claim those "miracles" were an act of God when we find out new things about science all the time. Keep in mind, this could also be science at act. [/quote] According to science, these things should not be happening. It is not a matter that they don't know what is happening. You're forced to come to one of two conclusions: 1. Science is just as arbitrary as miracles. In this case, the existence of any sort of predictable behavior is a miracle. 2. Miracles do happen. BTW, I'm assuming that you're not dismissing these as incredibly elaborate multi-century hoaxes. Also, just to undercut myself, does it matter whether it was a matter of science or miracle? I haven't heard of incorruptible Buddhists, atheists, Muslims, etc. It seems rather odd that nature would favor Catholics over anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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