Ordo.Teutonicorum Posted May 8, 2005 Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:22 PM'] It is incredible when you think about it like that. It's mind-boggling! But that does not mean it's impossible. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think of the world as so exciting and beautiful. [/quote] Don't you think you're putting a lot of faith into your irreligious view of things? I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion? I mean, in our modern society, we frown on religion and treat it as a pariah, but let's look at things scientifically. Either something made the Earth (or someone), or it made itself, through a series of random coincidences. Either way, we have little to no evidence on which of these two possibilities is correct. Leaving Catholicism out of things for the moment, why do you find the second argument more convincing than the first?
Fidei Defensor Posted May 8, 2005 Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:22 PM'] It is incredible when you think about it like that. It's mind-boggling! But that does not mean it's impossible. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think of the world as so exciting and beautiful. [/quote] Yes, it is beautiful. Lets just agree to disagree. We each have a different opinion to how the world came to be. I accept science to tell me this, but science cannot tell me why i am here. Ultimately, neither of us will change our minds, so lets work towards what we do agree on, rather than what we dont agree on. We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist. My point will be, though, that the other "messiahs" did not actually exist, but rather were a myth. So do we agree atleast that Jesus did exist, whether divine or not?
Pilgrim Posted May 8, 2005 Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:02 PM'] I don't understand your question. Where do we get our opposable thumbs? Through a long evolution. Intelligence is the same. [/quote] May I suggest, Semalsia, that you are casting your net a bit wide for the purposes of this discussion. You are trying to accomplish the colossal task of debunking all of religion, when in fact this is just a discussion about Jesus' messianic character. Perhaps you would care to focus in a bit and answer the many requests you've been given to explain exactly HOW these extra-biblical figures compare to Jesus and WHY they make him unsuitable as a messiah. Your explanations of the Earth's orbit are indeed interesting, but they do not convince me that Jesus wasn't the Christ.
Semalsia Posted May 8, 2005 Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion?[/quote] They are, to us humans. Many things in science do not hold to common sense. Yet they are logically sound and provable. Theory of relativity is mind-boggling too! I would say that I find religion more hard to believe than the scientific theories. [quote name='fidei defensor']Ultimately, neither of us will change our minds[/quote] That I know. I'm just having a talk. [quote name='fidei defensor']We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist.[/quote] No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine.
Semalsia Posted May 8, 2005 Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Pilgrim']May I suggest, Semalsia, that you are casting your net a bit wide for the purposes of this discussion. You are trying to accomplish the colossal task of debunking all of religion, when in fact this is just a discussion about Jesus' messianic character.[/quote] I know. I kind of tried to keep it on topic, but it seems these kind of discussions have a way of spreading. Anyways, I think I might have already spoken everything I wanted and could say about the actual subject. I don't know what else to say.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 8 2005, 01:30 AM'] Not to be rude, but if anyone's faith is based purely on their feelings, then that is not faith but emotion. One cannot build their faith on their feeling at that time for they will be like the ship without a rutter, tossed about by the wave of their own emotions. If you keep waiting for a definite answer for God, chances are they have already come, and are still coming, people just do not recongize them. One cannot say, "God I want you to do prove to me that you are real." God does not operate on our terms. Instead one must be open to the promptings and guidance of the Spirit to move one to faith. Faith is one of the three theological virtues and so is a gift that must be prayed and asked for. It will come with time, but if you try to do it all on your own, or build it upon your emotions, you will only get as far as humans can. In the long run that is not very far at all. [/quote] thx for the advice.........that is very comforting to hear
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 06:07 PM'] No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine. [/quote] It is not irrelevant. Either you truely do not know, or you are avoid it so that there is no chance of proving you wrong. I want to examine the history around him - the fact that he changed history so much. But we have to first atleast agree he existed. Any creditable historian would agree that a man, Jesus of Nazareth, existed.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 12:34 AM'] You could say the same thing about the moon landings. There's good documentation to support it, we even have rocks from the moon. But maybe they're just rocks from earth with good documentation that was falsified. The truth is a tricky thing if you are dealing in absolute proof. There is always room for doubt, there are always holes that can be poked in any arguments. A criminal whose DNA matches a rape victim might be a victim of a conspiracy. However, it is more likely that he raped the woman. You are free to use your own judgement however you please. However, if your judgements agaisnt religion are based on incredible evidence, then you should apply the same stringent standards of evidence to all other aspects of your life. To be honest, I think most modern difficulties with religion stem from it being hard to believe. But I ask you, when you go out into the forest and look at thousands of gigantic trees blocking out the sky, or when you see mountains or the vast oceans, is it really that hard to swallow that it was created by design and not random circumstance? [/quote] u could say the same thing..........now we have the technology to document things better. I would trust that we went to the moon because we have visual evidence recorded on video tape so that everyone can see. Nobody questions if we have been to the moon. Yet, some question if there is a god and if jesus truly was his son.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:09 AM'] Of course religions are going to be similar. They all want the same thing - God. Every religion has a bit of truth in it. But what other religions offer you so much, like Catholicism? Which other religions have documented proof of a man who purposefully died for humanity in order to reconcile them with the Father? [/quote] we cant prove his intentions and we cant prove that there is a father
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:13 PM'] we cant prove his intentions and we cant prove that there is a father [/quote] We can prove his intentions - his own words. He gave them to his followers. His followers wrote letters to cities and people, and told them about it. And you can prove the Father only if you believe that the intention of Jesus was true.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 8 2005, 11:55 AM'] Hate is usually grounded in fear. What are you afraid of? [/quote] issues that i feel are impossible to deal with.........i also feel god wont fix them
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:18 PM'] issues that i feel are impossible to deal with.........i also feel god wont fix them [/quote] God can fix them if you allow him. But see the thing is, you need to be open to the possibility that he does exist. Can you be so sure he doesnt exist? If you set your mind to think that he doesnt and the whole world is proof against him, then that is the only way you will think. Same goes for proof for his existence. You need to be open to all possibilities, or the proof you need will never be clear to you when you do get it.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:16 PM'] We can prove his intentions - his own words. He gave them to his followers. His followers wrote letters to cities and people, and told them about it. And you can prove the Father only if you believe that the intention of Jesus was true. [/quote] ones word is not proof of anything..........people tell the truth and they lie. so really in order to prove that there is a god.........you must first believe in him? there is a gap in logic here.
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:22 PM'] ones word is not proof of anything..........people tell the truth and they lie. so really in order to prove that there is a god.........you must first believe in him? there is a gap in logic here. [/quote] Yes people lie. But why would he lie when he was crucified for it? And for proving him, it depends on what kind of proof. You first said the father. In order to prove the father, you must believe that the son was speaking the truth. In order to believe that, you must be atleast open the possibility that he was speaking the truth. Dont sent you mind to looking for objections against it, but rather weigh them to the evidence for his truth. Look at it this way - if it were not true, then the apostles made up a big story which got them killed, crucified, and fed to the lions. This story killed many faithful. It also was enough for alternative thinkers to rebel against the rest and face burnings and excecution for. Do you really think that a myth could do that?
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 03:54 PM'] One thing - can you be so sure there is not a God? [/quote] no........nothing presupposes nothing
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 04:51 PM'] Don't you think you're putting a lot of faith into your irreligious view of things? I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion? I mean, in our modern society, we frown on religion and treat it as a pariah, but let's look at things scientifically. Either something made the Earth (or someone), or it made itself, through a series of random coincidences. Either way, we have little to no evidence on which of these two possibilities is correct. Leaving Catholicism out of things for the moment, why do you find the second argument more convincing than the first? [/quote] i dont think the creation of the universe and planets is very important. They may have very well always existed for all we know. The important thing to focus on is the beginning of life. There is no such living form that always existed. Therefore, there is a beginning and an end to all life. knowing this.......i would put my money down on a creator (a cause).
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 06:07 PM'] That I know. I'm just having a talk. [quote name='fidei defensor']We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist.[/quote] No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine. [/quote] its not a question of belief........its a fact.........a man named jesus of nazareth did in fact exist. Just look in the dictionary. The bible is not the only thing that says that.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:26 PM'] Yes people lie. But why would he lie when he was crucified for it? And for proving him, it depends on what kind of proof. You first said the father. In order to prove the father, you must believe that the son was speaking the truth. In order to believe that, you must be atleast open the possibility that he was speaking the truth. Dont sent you mind to looking for objections against it, but rather weigh them to the evidence for his truth. Look at it this way - if it were not true, then the apostles made up a big story which got them killed, crucified, and fed to the lions. This story killed many faithful. It also was enough for alternative thinkers to rebel against the rest and face burnings and excecution for. Do you really think that a myth could do that? [/quote] yes, you got a bunch of people like this who live today. particularly in primitive parts of the world. Tribes sacrifice human beings to gods. These people who are being sacraficed are dying for what they believe.
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:48 PM'] yes, you got a bunch of people like this who live today. particularly in primitive parts of the world. Tribes sacrifice human beings to gods. These people who are being sacraficed are dying for what they believe. [/quote] Yes, but their reasoning for it is different.
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Author Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 08:50 PM'] Yes, but their reasoning for it is different. [/quote] we still havent given any reason that jesus was who he said he was. it all boils down to believing in what he said. i dont see any difference in these african tribal sacrifices compared to what we call martyrs
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