Was Jesus the true messiah?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius']So your arguement is that because Jesus resembles ancient myths, He must not of existed, or if so then He must of only been the basis for legends. Seems like a leap in logic to me.

Please line out point for point how Christ resembles such mythological figures and why you think that this points out that He must not be real.[/quote]

I'm having a sort of déjà vu feeling here. Didn't I already answer to you on these?

- There is no non-biblical evidence that Jesus existed
- Lots of Jesus-like messiahs were present at the time
- All of these messiahs share the same roots in previous pagan mythologies
- All the first (non-biblical) writings of Jesus or christians were done 50-100 years after the death of Jesus, when all of the eye-witnesses were most likely dead and christianity already a religion

So the question is: which is more likely, that Jesus was divine or that it was all made up myths?

[Noel's angel]

you contradict yourselve in your post. Firstly you say that there is NO non-Biblical evidence that Jesus existed, then you say there is

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Noel's angel']you contradict yourselve in your post. Firstly you say that there is NO non-Biblical evidence that Jesus existed, then you say there is[/quote]

In my last point I am referring to writing like that of Tacitus. They are non-biblical writings of Jesus/christians, but in no way are they evidence of their existance (because of the reasons I mentioned). So I have not contradicted myself.

[Noel's angel]

[quote]There is [b]no non-biblical [/b]evidence that Jesus existed

- [b]All the first (non-biblical) writings [/b]of Jesus or christians were done 50-100 years after the death of Jesus, when all of the eye-witnesses were most likely dead and christianity already a religion[/quote]

writings are evidence, maybe in your view they are not sound evidence, but they are evidence nontheless

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 01:53 PM'] - Lots of Jesus-like messiahs were present at the time
- All of these messiahs share the same roots in previous pagan mythologies
[/quote]
That is what I want you to expound upon. Tell me these other "messiahs" and how they prove without a doubt that Jesus did not exist.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 01:31 PM'] I didn't mean a actual randomness. Of course there natural laws which cause the nature to be predictable. I meant that there is no intelligence or designer behind it all. [/quote]
That still does not make sense. How can a natural law form out of random generation of life in such a way that everything works together to form the world we know. As you said, nature is "random" meaning that it was random at its formation (how ever you think that occured)

Do you know what the odds are that Earth is the way is?

Did you know that if it was not for Jupiter, we would be like the moon and have no life?

Did you know that if the Earth even moves a CM from its orbit either towards or away from the sun, we would either burn or freeze?

You mean to tell me that this just all happened out of a random, spur of the second happening, and it all just happened to land the way it is?

I dont buy that.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 8 2005, 02:09 PM']
writings are evidence, maybe in your view they are not sound evidence, but they are evidence nontheless [/quote]
Exactly. The New testament is made up of writings and letters of the followers of Jesus. Its evidence none the less. You use it as you would use any other writings. Just because its in the Bible doesnt make it invalid as evidence.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='fidei defensor']That still does not make sense. How can a natural law form out of random generation of life in such a way that everything works together to form the world we know.[/quote]

You are arguing from a point of view that the Earth and humans must have come to be. There is no reason for us to be here. That's just a way it happened. There are countless possibilities that could have happened during the last five billion years. A dice was thrown and this is the outcome: us. Since there are literally hundreds of billions of other solar systems, the odds of at least one of them coming up with intelligence starts to look pretty good. Rarity is not a good argument, when in the universe the dice is thrown so many times.

[quote]Do you know what the odds are that Earth is the way is?[/quote]

Irrelevant. Do you know how many different kind of snowflakes there is possible to exist? When you find a snowflake, the odds that you found exactly that kind of snowflake are extremely low. Still, I doubt you scream "miracle" every time you find a snowflake.

[quote]Did you know that if it was not for Jupiter, we would be like the moon and have no life?[/quote]

Irrelevant. We just happen to be that kind of planet which did have Jupiter with it's neighbor.

[quote]Did you know that if the Earth even moves a CM from its orbit either towards or away from the sun, we would either burn or freeze?[/quote]

Not true. Earth's distance from the sun varies millions of miles during one year. Do you know when it is the closests? Yeah, in the winter. And the furthest? Yep, in the summer.

[quote]You mean to tell me that this just all happened out of a random, spur of the second happening, and it all just happened to land the way it is?[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm telling you.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:39 PM'] Not true. Earth's distance from the sun varies millions of miles during one year. Do you know when it is the closests? Yeah, in the winter. And the furthest? Yep, in the summer.
[/quote]
I am talking about the path it takes every year, the one that is always the same.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:39 PM'] Irrelevant. Do you know how many different kind of snowflakes there is possible to exist? When you find a snowflake, the odds that you found exactly that kind of snowflake are extremely low. Still, I doubt you scream "miracle" every time you find a snowflake. [/quote]
Thats not even the same thing. Snowflakes are frozen water that do not have a set freezing pattern. This is Earth, with complicated life forms which all depend on the circumstances of how the Earth is working in order to survive.

Hardly the same thing

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:39 PM'] Still, I doubt you scream "miracle" every time you find a snowflake.
[/quote]
Actually I do consider all of creation a "mircale" so yeah I do. Thanks.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius'] Actually I do consider all of creation a "mircale" so yeah I do. Thanks.[/quote]

You must be fun to walk in the woods with

[Fidei Defensor]

New Question: Where do we get our intellect and reasoning from? (From an atheistic point of view)

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:55 PM'] [quote name='Paphnutius'] Actually I do consider all of creation a "mircale" so yeah I do. Thanks.[/quote]

You must be fun to walk in the woods with [/quote]
I think it adds a wonderful deminsion to one's life to behold the beauty of the miracle of creation.

I am really not trying to pester you, but I would really like to know who exactly those other messiah types were and how their stories mirrored Christ's. Really not badgering, just wanting to learn.

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 8 2005, 02:59 PM'] I would really like to know who exactly those other messiah types were and how their stories mirrored Christ's. Really not badgering, just wanting to learn. [/quote]
I've been waiting to hear this for quite a while. Semalsia, you keep saying that there are other figures whose lives mirror that of Christ's, but you fail to point out exactly HOW they mirror Christ's or HOW they prove Christ is not the messiah. You have been trying to prove your point [i]negatively [/i] by attempting to debunk everyone else's arguments, but you have failed to make any [i]positive[/i] arguments of your own by stating a conclusion and giving evidence to back it up. I'm waiting with bated breath.