Colleen Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 20 2005, 10:14 PM']Define a "Catholic" song, there are many old songs that are found in protestant hymnals that we have been singing for many years. [right][snapback]651924[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think a song like "Shall We Gather at the River" measures up to the Catholic standards as set forth by Vatican II, Pope St. Pius X, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and the GIRM. . . .
qfnol31 Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 cmom, which songs do you think are appropriate "Protestant" songs that we sing?
Pontifex Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 AMazing Grace, with the appropriate text change. uh..
Colleen Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 20 2005, 10:14 PM']Define a "Catholic" song, there are many old songs that are found in protestant hymnals that we have been singing for many years. [right][snapback]651924[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would say that a Catholic song is a song that is sacred. It is one which follows guidelines which have been expressed by several Popes. For example, Pope St. Pius the Tenth says in [url="http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html"] Tra le sollecitudini[/url]: [quote]1. Sacred music, being a complementary part of the solemn liturgy, participates in the general scope of the liturgy, which is the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It contributes to the decorum and the splendor of the ecclesiastical ceremonies, and since its principal office is to clothe with suitable melody the liturgical text proposed for the understanding of the faithful, its proper aim is to add greater efficacy to the text, in order that through it the faithful may be the more easily moved to devotion and better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace belonging to the celebration of the most holy mysteries. 2. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality. It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it. It must be true art, for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds. But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them.[/quote] For a song to be appropriate at Mass, it has to be beautiful in its form and in what is being expressed. It has to glorify God and move people to be properly disposed for the reception of the Eucharist. It shouldn't turn people off -- it should bring people in mind of the awesomeness of what is taking place in the Sacrifice of the Mass. It shouldn't detract or distract from that. John Paul II reaffirmed this in his [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html"]Letter on Sacred Music[/url] when he said: [quote]3. On several occasions I have also recalled the valuable function and the great importance of music and of song for more active and intense participation at liturgical celebrations, and I have emphasized the necessity to "purify worship from ugliness of style, from distasteful forms of expression, from uninspired musical texts which are not worthy of the great act that is being celebrated", in order to ensure dignity and integrity of forms to liturgical music. . . . 4. In following the course of the teachings of Saint Pius X and of the Second Vatican Council, it is above all necessary to emphasize that music destined for the sacred rites must have as its point of reference sanctity: it in fact "will be the more holy the more closely it is united to the liturgical action". Precisely because of this, "not all that which stands outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross the threshold", sagely affirmed my venerated Predecessor Paul VI, commenting upon a decree of the Council of Trent and clarified that "if it does not at once possess the sense of prayer, of dignity and beauty, music -- instrumental and vocal -- by this fact is precluded from admission into the sacred and religious realm".[/quote] Music at Mass should be beautiful, sacred, dignified, and prayerful. If the music at Mass isn't doing these things, I think there's something wrong with it.
annie Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 I tell ya, if I could get past some of the INSTRUMENTS I would discern the CHOICE of music.. I DESPISE our ' Bell Choir' --- up front with all the members flinging their arms and jingling the endings, it is not only distracting but downright annoyiing. :angry: Getting to foo-foo with the music, no matter what the choice of hymns, is aggravating. We live here in the Protestant Vatican, and it always seems like it is a competition with the 'Cornerstone Willowbrook Evangelical Free Extravaganza Services' (FYI that is a made-up name to protect the ) - You know, trying to 'improve' the music---a.k.a. Broadway-ing it up a bit. Music is very very powerful. In a world of fast-dose information, speed reading, hurry hurrry hurry, music forces us to meditate. We better be meditating on the right stuff (and 'Morning Has Broken' just don't cut it)
cmotherofpirl Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Colleen' date='Jul 21 2005, 12:01 AM']I would say that a Catholic song is a song that is sacred. It is one which follows guidelines which have been expressed by several Popes. For example, Pope St. Pius the Tenth says in [url="http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html"] Tra le sollecitudini[/url]: For a song to be appropriate at Mass, it has to be beautiful in its form and in what is being expressed. It has to glorify God and move people to be properly disposed for the reception of the Eucharist. It shouldn't turn people off -- it should bring people in mind of the awesomeness of what is taking place in the Sacrifice of the Mass. It shouldn't detract or distract from that. John Paul II reaffirmed this in his [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0204OnSacredMusic.html"]Letter on Sacred Music[/url] when he said: Music at Mass should be beautiful, sacred, dignified, and prayerful. If the music at Mass isn't doing these things, I think there's something wrong with it. [right][snapback]652009[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But what you consider beautiful, sacred, dignified and prayerful might be different than someone else. Edited July 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl
cmotherofpirl Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='annie' date='Jul 21 2005, 12:16 AM']I tell ya, if I could get past some of the INSTRUMENTS I would discern the CHOICE of music.. I DESPISE our ' Bell Choir' --- up front with all the members flinging their arms and jingling the endings, it is not only distracting but downright annoyiing. :angry: Getting to foo-foo with the music, no matter what the choice of hymns, is aggravating. We live here in the Protestant Vatican, and it always seems like it is a competition with the 'Cornerstone Willowbrook Evangelical Free Extravaganza Services' (FYI that is a made-up name to protect the ) - You know, trying to 'improve' the music---a.k.a. Broadway-ing it up a bit. Music is very very powerful. In a world of fast-dose information, speed reading, hurry hurrry hurry, music forces us to meditate. We better be meditating on the right stuff (and 'Morning Has Broken' just don't cut it) [right][snapback]652046[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Bell music is wonderful as long as you don't have to watch it
Aloysius Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 that someone else might be wrong. music is not necessarily subjective to taste, contrary to popular modern belief.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 21 2005, 01:07 AM']that someone else might be wrong. music is not necessarily subjective to taste, contrary to popular modern belief. [right][snapback]652108[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But that someone else could be right, and you could be wrong. Are you trying to tell me music is objective???? Do you really believe having taste is a modern acquisition? Do you think people in previous eras didn't have favorites as well?
Aloysius Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 no, I'm saying that the essential nature of music as "sacred, reverent, et cetera" is not subjective, and that the Church is correct to define sacred music as chant (all rites of the Church have had some sort of chant since the very beginning some would argue). you can have taste in music, I know that's not modern. but whether or not music is "sacred" is not subjective to people's tastes.
cmotherofpirl Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 21 2005, 01:23 AM']no, I'm saying that the essential nature of music as "sacred, reverent, et cetera" is not subjective, and that the Church is correct to define sacred music as chant (all rites of the Church have had some sort of chant since the very beginning some would argue). you can have taste in music, I know that's not modern. but whether or not music is "sacred" is not subjective to people's tastes. [right][snapback]652131[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sure its subjective. What is sacred and reverent to you might not be to me.
Aloysius Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 to the Church only certain types of music are deemed "sacred"
argent_paladin Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 1. Appropriate liturgical music is NOT completely or even mostly subjective. Especially in the context of a cappella, these songs are not good choices. They were written for accompaniment. The proper music for the Roman liturgy, especially a cappella, is chant, which is specifically designed for no accompaniment (or organ). 2. Repetition in itself is not bad. I would be constructive in engaging. If you have plenty of money but not musical talent or time, offer to buy a dozen Adoremus hymnals for daily mass. If you have musical talent, offer to act as cantor on occasion. If you can do neither, talk to other daily massers and see what they think. If the majority prefer simple chant or silence, you should let the pastor know about this. 3. I disagree with those who think that this is unimportant or petty. We do go to mass for the music, in part: [quote]112. The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy. 116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.[/quote] Music is critically important to liturgy, daily mass as much as Easter Sunday at St. Peter's.
goldenchild17 Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 From Sacrosanctum Concilium - "116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services. But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30." Seems the Church prefers Gregorian as more beautiful for the Mass. This isn't to say that other kinds of music aren't okay. I just think that other kinds of music shouldn't be so... what's the word I'm looking for? Joyful. We are at Mass, the Mass is the Sacrifice at Calvary. Should we be singing all happy-like? That said I love some good ol' praise & worship in it's proper place(outside of Mass)
Philippe Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 i happen to enjoy guitar playing and bass playing and drum playing and amazing singing at Mass. but then again to all of you that makes me a heretic. I really think there are many more things to worry about. We need to cool off a lil sometimes
Frankencow Posted July 21, 2005 Posted July 21, 2005 [quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jul 20 2005, 03:36 PM']be thankful you have music at daily Mass... [right][snapback]651372[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Be thankful you can understand daily mass....
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