Just wondering...

[inDEED]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']not gonna happen, main reason: dUSt doesn't want any more phorums
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And you know this how?

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']anyway, phatmass should be a place where we can talk about liturgical abuses and things that go against the spirit of Vatican II (the spirit of Vatican II is GREGORIAN CHANT and SACRED POLYPHYNY).
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I'm not arguing that these types of things should or should not be discussed...I'm hoping that a separate section can be set aside by most of the pointless drab about whether or not "Blessed Be The Name" should be played...And btw, it's amazing how an 18 year old knows the "spirit" of Vatican II more than the Bishops and Priests who ADVOCATE so-called "charismatic" music.

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM'] If you don't like it, don't read it.
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My fear in not reading and replying is simple...if a voice like mine is not heard in these posts, many may be led astray - to the belief that a guitar, drums, and percussion instruments are not right in the Mass...when in fact, they're MORE than welcome...JUST as an organ or choir are.

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']But I find it insulting to music to call all types of music equal and judge solely on lyrics.
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Sorry you're insulted, dude...but it's a fact...music is MUSIC - it's the intention that separates it from the rest...

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']Types of music have inherent qualities to them, some draw in the emotions and some draw in the intellect and some draw in the whole of the human person.  Some reflect the simplicity of the human voice as the only instrument created by God himself, some emphasize the beat and tap into primordial instincts of a person.
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So whose decision is this to make then? YOURS? or your Priest's/Bishop's/Music Ministers'?

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']To say that the only thing that matters is the lyrics is utterly wrong and insulting to the nature of music.
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[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']relativism in regards to musical type is very harmful especially to the roman liturgy.  gregorian chant and sacred polyphany are the only types of music distinctly designed to enhance the roman liturgy.  the allowance of other types of music is intended for specific situations and may or may not have been wise-- it is a matter of discipline and right now the reform of the reform is working to correct its negative side effects.
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Relativism CAN be a dangerous thing...but I would HARDLY consider a song by Matt Maher/Rich Mullins/Third Day used in the Mass to be something leading AWAY from the Mass...as a matter of fact, I would argue that in many cases - it is heathen songs such as these that AID in drawing souls CLOSER to participation in the Mass...call me crazy, but I believe that GOD is bigger than our holding him to 1 or 2 types of music.

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 05:38 PM']I said, if you don't like it, don't read it.  I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings for me to say I don't want your type of music in the mass, but there are objective realities about the nature of music and the nature of the roman liturgy that I will never back down on.  Neither is there any reason to attempt to silence such legitimate concerns.
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I'll say this one more time...I represent a portion of PHATMASSERS here and LURKERS alike who appreciate the diverse directions that liturgical music has taken and continues to take. Do I feel that chant is no longer "needed" or "appropriate" for the Mass? HECK NO! I LOVE CHANT IN THE MASS! BUT - I WILL say that by arrogantly REJECTING other forms of music in the Mass is RIDICULOUS.

I am not attempting to silence ANYONE'S concern - my hope is that we can separate these posts that seem to breed contempt among our parishes into a "back alley" forum for those "real" worshippers to discuss, rant, & rave.

[dUSt]

Personally, I like the threads that bash modern church music, because frankly, I think modern church music detracts from the mass, and overall is harmful to the spiritual growth of both yound people and old people alike.

And we already have too many boards.

[inDEED]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 3 2005, 07:04 PM']Personally, I like the threads that bash modern church music, because frankly, I think modern church music detracts from the mass. and overall, is harmful to the spiritual growth of both yound people and old people alike.

And we already have too many boards.
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Really? I NEVER KNEW HOW YOU FELT!!! :

Although I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with you, I will respect your decision to not have another board...But looky there - already over 130+ views...

[ninjakyle]

Last time I saw the Pope celebrating mass (JPII or BXVI), I seem to remember drums. You would think the Pope would know better. hmmmm

[Aloysius]

I know because dUSt has already pruned the boards a couple times out of concern that we'reg etting too many branches and it's taking away from the community aspect of the board. I am saying this based on posts he has made on most requests to create new boards.

It is completely contrary to the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council to say that guitar and drum music is as well suited or equal to chant and polyphany in regards to use in the roman liturgy. in your last post, you have in effect called the decisions of the Second Vatican Council

[quote]The church recognises Gregorian chant as something special to the Roman liturgy, which should thus, other things being equal (qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis), be given a place of primacy in liturgical activity.  Other sorts f sacred music, especially of course polyphony, are in no way excluded from the celebration of religious services, provided that they fit in with the spirit of the liturgical event, in keeping with article 30[/quote]

So to answer your question on who decides? ROME.

Rome doesn't think all types of music are equal just because of their lyrics. Rome puts gregorian chant at a primacy and polyphany above any other form of music. Rome understands that types of music are inherently different, that some focus on the spirit and some focus on the emotions and some focus on the intellect.

I have no problem with emotion music outside of the liturgy, just like I have no problem with watching a comedy to get the emotion of amusement I would not have a problem with listening to religious emotion music to get the emotion of religiosity.

Alot of classical music tends to be aimed overly at the intellect, modern types of music really aim at the emotions with their strong emphasis on beats; gregorian chant and polyphany is reall

[Aloysius]

I know because dUSt has already pruned the boards a couple times out of concern that we'reg etting too many branches and it's taking away from the community aspect of the board. I am saying this based on posts he has made on most requests to create new boards.

It is completely contrary to the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council to say that guitar and drum music is as well suited or equal to chant and polyphany in regards to use in the roman liturgy. in your last post, you have in effect called the decisions of the Second Vatican Council

[quote]The church recognises Gregorian chant as something special to the Roman liturgy, which should thus, other things being equal (qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis), be given a place of primacy in liturgical activity.  Other sorts f sacred music, especially of course polyphony, are in no way excluded from the celebration of religious services, provided that they fit in with the spirit of the liturgical event, in keeping with article 30[/quote]

So to answer your question on who decides? ROME.

Rome doesn't think all types of music are equal just because of their lyrics. Rome puts gregorian chant at a primacy and polyphany above any other form of music. Rome understands that types of music are inherently different, that some focus on the spirit and some focus on the emotions and some focus on the intellect.

I have no problem with emotion music outside of the liturgy, just like I have no problem with watching a comedy to get the emotion of amusement I would not have a problem with listening to religious emotion music to get the emotion of religiosity.

Alot of

[God Conquers]

Dude, read your quote over:

The church recognises Gregorian chant as something special to the Roman liturgy, which should thus, [b]other things being equal (qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis)[/b], be given a place of primacy in liturgical activity. [b]Other sorts of sacred music, especially of course polyphony, [b][i]are in no way excluded from the celebration of religious services[/b][/i], provided that they fit in with the spirit of the liturgical event, in keeping with article 30

P-dub it up!

See, the thing that burns me is that someone's gonna come on here and say

"Rome decides, it's the magesterium of the Church headed by the Pope and the bishops, who knows best what music should be allowed and not allowed in mass.... guitars and drums are not allowed!"

Then I'll say "But the pope had electric guitars and drums at his mass at WYD... and every bishop in the world allows types of music other than Gregorian Chant, polyphyny and the organ to be played at masses."

But someone will inevitably return with:

"It wasn't the pope who decided that.... and the bishops have no choice."

hmmmm.....? So which is it?

[Philippe]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Oct 3 2005, 11:26 AM']Do you think it would be possible to have a forum *specifically* for those posts with the specific intention to "rant" or "rave" about the "hip" music during Mass or those "wacky clappers"?

In other words - a forum specifically for those people who wish to "vent" (I call it talkin' trash) about the way that their parish may or may not do things "right"?

That would REALLY do a GREAT service to those of us who are sick and tired of seeing topics that are centered on how evil Lifeteen is, how bad liturgical music with a drum or guitar is, or how evil OCP is in bringing worship music to the masses.

That'd be SPECTACULAR!

werd.
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man i totally agree, i'm really sick of all of this because i totally dig the lifeteen music and ive seen the great things it can do. I also am very involved in this kind of music in my Parish through different ministries and i focus alot of my stuff on music. When people attack the music i feel like its a personal attack and it makes it very hard to continue doing what i do with music when i feel like i'm getting attacked.

If you like gregorian chant, go to the Mass with chant, if you like lifeteen music, go to the Mass with lifeteen music, if you like gospel music, go to the Mass with gospel music. I hope it brings you closer to Christ.

[dUSt]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:56 PM']Dude, read your quote over:

The church recognises Gregorian chant as something special to the Roman liturgy, which should thus, [b]other things being equal (qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis)[/b], be given a place of primacy in liturgical activity.  [b]Other sorts of sacred music, especially of course polyphony, [b][i]are in no way excluded from the celebration of religious services[/b][/i], provided that they fit in with the spirit of the liturgical event, in keeping with article 30

P-dub it up!
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You totally missed the point.

This is saying that Gregorian chant [b]should be given a place of primacy[/b] in the liturgy.

[b]pri·ma·cy -[/b] 1. The state of being first or foremost.

To my knowledge, this doesn't exist at any parish in my diocese, yet, there are several Lifeteen masses where you can hear the latest Protestant written worship music.

But yeah, I see how this is bringing people to a deeper understanding of the sacrifice of the mass.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Oct 3 2005, 02:23 PM']Get off your high horses and get past the music and focus into His presence...
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kinda hard w/ that freakin bongo in the background......

[Philippe]

at least its bringing people to Mass! Then they can begin to understand from there. I think your missing the point, people enjoy the music and it encourages them to come back every sunday, even if its for the wrong reasons, they might start to see the beauty of the Church by attending Mass eventually and start coming for the right reasons

[dUSt]

[quote name='Philippe' date='Oct 3 2005, 10:26 PM']at least its bringing people to Mass! Then they can begin to understand from there. I think your missing the point, people enjoy the music and it encourages them to come back every sunday, even if its for the wrong reasons, they might start to see the beauty of the Church by attending Mass eventually and start coming for the right reasons
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Why not set some slot machines up in the lobby? How about a bikini car wash in the parking lot before mass? That'll get 'em there!

I'm being absurd, but only to make a point. It's not appropriate to attract people to mass for the wrong reasons. [b]Christ[/b] is why people go to mass, and we disrespect Him when we start to invent ways to to "attract" people, when He should be the [b]only[/b] reason.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

dUSt had brought up a good point before to have a shorter Mass with little or no music and then have a jam session or band afterwards... I thought it was a good idea...

[dUSt]

Right. Why are musicians so offended when they are told that the music they play isn't appropriate for mass? Why can't they just play after mass? Before mass? If people are truly being attracted to mass because of [b]their[/b] music, then [b]surely[/b] they'll stay after mass to hear it, right? Give me a break. I think the truth of the matter is that many musicians think it is their right to use the mass as their stage because they know nobody would want to listen to it any other time.

[Aloysius]

since ancient times we have NEVER used the mass as an evangelism tool. preaching in the streets is an evangelism tool. missionary work and charity work are evangalism tools. the Mass was the celebration and sacrifice of the community already won over to Christ.

Jesus didn't give the Apostles a mass until He had taught them for three years. The early Christians forbid non-Christians from being in the mass. Later, they allowed non-Christians who intended to become Christians eventually to be in the mass up until a certain point before the consecration where they would have to leave.

The Liturgy is not subject to people's personal preferences.

And my quote from the Second Vatican Council is dead on. In that section I quoted it is talking about NOTHING other than chant and organ music. It says other forms of [i]sacred[/i] music especially polyphony. this does not refer to drum-beat-heavy music.

Then in the next section it talks about how missionaries should use local music to evangelize but DOESN'T say they should put that music in the liturgy.

Then in another section it comes out and says other instruments are allowed. Not welcome, not preferred, but allowed.

[God Conquers]

I know what primacy means. And I agree. How could I not, it's Church teaching?

However, Al was purporting that the document was EXCLUSIVELY endorsing gregorian chant and polyphony when in fact, it was not doing that at all.

Also, polyphony does not have the same place as gregorian chant but is listed with "other types of music".

I'd prefer my parish spent $500 on a bongo than $50 000 on an organ. And used the $45 000 to keep the roof from falling in.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

yeah... I think many people find Mass to be a place to showcase their musical abilities... even in the pews my friends show off their singing all the time, but they talk throughout the rest of the Mass... drives me nuts...

I enjoy the daily Masses at my home parish because there is no music except for the enterance hymn.

[Brother Adam]

Dust is soo right on this issue

[God Conquers]

Allowed is allowed.

I wish everyone understood sacred music the same way we do. Unfortunately they don't. They think it smells of elderberries and is boring. (not my opinion but definately what some people think.)

Why does guitar and drum driven P&W have to be protestant?

I attend masses where CATHOLIC WRITTEN and theologically correct music is played... with guitar and drums. It rocks. It's sacred. It even has latin and greek in it.

[Philippe]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Oct 3 2005, 08:42 PM']Allowed is allowed.

I wish everyone understood sacred music the same way we do. Unfortunately they don't. They think it smells of elderberries and is boring. (not my opinion but definately what some people think.)

Why does guitar and drum driven P&W have to be protestant?

I attend masses where CATHOLIC WRITTEN and theologically correct music is played... with guitar and drums. It rocks. It's sacred. It even has latin and greek in it.
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i feel the same way with you, the music that we play at Mass is mostly written by the people playing it and its all really Catholic. I just wish we could stop arguing about it so much