Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='inDEED' date='Oct 4 2005, 12:53 AM']One last question... This is open to anyone... Do you feel that music ministers who play the guitar, drums, piano, keyboard, percussion @ Mass are doing a disservice to the Church and going against Vatican II? A simple YES or NO will do. [right][snapback]745425[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not if there is not sacred music available or there is a special circumstance for which the bishop allowed it. But ultimately, big picture every sunday, it has a negative impact.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 Isn't is AMAZING how the word "preferred" DOES NOT imply that the others are not proper? Amazing...
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Al to be fair, kids have been making out in churches long before lifeteen was even an idea. The basic flaw in the argument against lifeteen (in my humble opinion) is that the real gripe isn't about the music or its ability to attract teens to mass. The real gripe is the absolute lack of catechesis that teens (and the rest of Catholics) have been given. That is the real issue. In light of that, music is inconsequential.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:57 PM']Not if there is not sacred music available or there is a special circumstance for which the bishop allowed it. But ultimately, big picture every sunday, it has a negative impact. [right][snapback]745430[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What a sad statement... It is my hope that those Phatmass posters who have devoted their lives to serve as Music Ministers @ their local parish will not take TOO much offense at your statement.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 I'm done. It is my hope that with the 400+ views in this topic, that some of our Catholic "charismatics" will not feel so alone in posting @ Phatmass. Al - I appreciate your honesty and pray that we can dialogue again in the future... As of now however - I'm done...
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 116 Ecclesia cantum gregorianum agnoscit ut liturgiae romanae [b]proprium[/b] The church recognises Gregorian Chant as something proper to the roman liturgy qui ideo in actionibus liturgicis, ceteris paribus, principem lcum obtineat which should thus, other things being equal, be given primacy in liturgical activity It's most proper, the thing you called rediculous and absurd was the idea that this type of music is proper to the liturgy in a way that other types aren't. Vatican II says it is more proper than the other types but the other types are allowed (in worship of God, it doesn't use the word "roman liturgy" when talking about other types) Anyway, you're still arguing against some straw man that says I think the Church has banned all other types of music. That's not true and my posts attest to it: I am doing nothing but echoing the second vatican council which shouts 'gregorian chant' 'polyphony' 'organ' for roman liturgy and then says, other types can be allowed by local ordinary permission in worship of God.
Philippe Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 ya i'm really sorry you feel that way Al, but i truly think that if it wasnt for the music i might not even be here right now and i wouldnt love gregorian chant. And as for hot stuff's comment, i agree with you that some lifeteen programs have weak chatechesis however i think that is the case with any youth program, your gonna have parishes that are good and some that are bad. I happen to go to a great Parish with great chatechesis
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Let me summarize my position in four main points I've been arguing: 1) Chant and sacred polyphony are primary and preferred and normative to the Roman liturgy 2) the organ is the best instrument to convey all this 3) other types of music are allowed 4) there is an inherent nature to types of music which make them conducive to different situations apart from their lyrical content. 5) a combination of 1, 2, and 4 is emphasized and actively promoted by the second vatican council and that type of music is best in the roman liturgy to life both heart and mind in worship; whereas P & W is designed to raise heart and much high classical stuff is designed to raise mind
ninjakyle Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Can anyone tell me why the Pope(s) allow drums at WYD events?
Dave Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 I might as well jump in ... Hasn't the Church said that those instruments that have a secular or downright profane connotation should never be used at Mass? So what would people here consider secular or profane instrument-wise?
Philippe Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 i think it would definitaly be a stretch to call any drumset or guitar an instrument with profane connotation
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='Dave' date='Oct 4 2005, 12:12 AM']I might as well jump in ... Hasn't the Church said that those instruments that have a secular or downright profane connotation should never be used at Mass? So what would people here consider secular or profane instrument-wise? [right][snapback]745451[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And enter the organ.. The organ was a profane and secular instrument right up to the day that a pope introduced it to liturgy. Its very much akin to how current popes have used the guitar and drums at mass.
lifeteenchick527 Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='ninjakyle' date='Oct 3 2005, 10:12 PM']Can anyone tell me why the Pope(s) allow drums at WYD events? [right][snapback]745450[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah thats wat i was going to say... i mean hello... it was played for the POPE! the Vicar of Christ ... ans also i agree with philippe... it is quite a stretch God Bless LTC
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 4 2005, 12:58 AM']Al to be fair, kids have been making out in churches long before lifeteen was even an idea. [right][snapback]745432[/snapback][/right] [/quote] we have been drawing young people to mass long before lifeteen was even an idea. I was just illustrating why I didn't feel inDEED's lifeteen arguments held water for me. Why did a couple good ol' pastoral popes allow guitars and drums at WYD masses? well... why did Mother Angelica used to wear a modern habit? same reason, to appease the people. it is clear from the council which boht of those popes were active participants in that chant and polyphony are considered by them to be the preferred and most proper to the roman liturgy. all I have been doing is spitting out vatican ii this entire thread. strong emphasis on the sacred deposit of music and a desire to continue to cultivate and grow that type of roman music with a marginalized allowance for other forms of music.
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote]we have been drawing young people to mass long before lifeteen was even an idea.[/quote] No we haven't. Parents have taken their kids to mass long before lifeteen was even an idea. Youth masses started because parents stopped doing it in droves. Why? Bad catechesis of parents. Bad catechesis of kids.
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 4 2005, 01:14 AM']And enter the organ.. The organ was a profane and secular instrument right up to the day that a pope introduced it to liturgy. Its very much akin to how current popes have used the guitar and drums at mass. [right][snapback]745456[/snapback][/right] [/quote] and we took the organ and played it in a completely different way. I have yet to see guitar and drum instrumental music so far distanced from the secular types of music. they just take the same style and put Christian lyrics to it. I wanna see the instrumentals that do not so emphasize the beat that draws out emotions above intellect... I wanna see the style of guitar music that is not the same style as the type of music proper to outside mass. also, what instruments do you define as those profane/secular connotation instruments that are not supposed to be used if not these ones?
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 4 2005, 01:34 AM']No we haven't. Parents have taken their kids to mass long before lifeteen was even an idea. Youth masses started because parents stopped doing it in droves. Why? Bad catechesis of parents. Bad catechesis of kids. [right][snapback]745487[/snapback][/right] [/quote] that's happened more than once in the history of the Church. the youth have been drawn to the mass without the introduction of modern music more than once in the history of the Church. we didn't draw them in with the mass though... because the mass was never designed to be a tool of evanglization but a celebration and sacrifice among those who have already been won to the Lord.
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote]and we took the organ and played it in a completely different way[/quote] Go to a ball game. Go to an ice rink. Go to a concert. Buy a Ray Charles cd. The organ isn't secular any more?
Philippe Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Another thing, i was blessed enough to be at a Mass with Cardinal Arinze and what kind of music was there? a guitar and a violin, what music was being played, contemporary music... if it was SOOOO GRAVE wouldnt the Cardinal or even the Pope stop this kind of stuff from going on? I just really dont think this is a huge deal
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