inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:30 PM']And why you don't see the problem in this why I don't understand your feeling on this issue. [right][snapback]745383[/snapback][/right] [/quote]
God Conquers Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 11:20 PM']everyone closes their mind around something. it's a good thing. opening your mind is like opening your mouth-- you only do it to let good things in. if you walked around with your mouth open all of the time you'd catch flies. we both have closed minds. you have closed your mind around the idea that lyrics are the only quality of a musical peice that gives it inherent value. and because of this you are unable to understand the reasons Vatican II is giving for traditional sacred music. I have closed my mind around the idea that instrumentals do affect the inherent quality of the music and that Vatican II is right in saying that it is the music most proper to the Roman Liturgy. [right][snapback]745365[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You see, this is intelligent. It is. Now... Guitar, drums, keyboard, synthesizer, bass, voice with harmony. These things create layered instrumental music. Music which is both pleasing to the eye and to the soul. If coupled to words about Satan... this is bad. If along with words proclaiming the goodness and Glory of God... this is a very good thing. I suggest reading in Kreefts "The Good Things In Life" the chapter on rock music. It gives a really good exposition of the philosophy behind the music/poem/prose distinctions you're hinting at here.
dUSt Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 I would rather that 10 teens develop an understanding about what mass truly is than 1000 teens come to mass to be entertained. In a nutshell, that's the argument.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='dUSt' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:33 PM']I would rather that 10 teens develop an understanding about what mass truly is than 1000 teens come to mass to be entertained. In a nutshell, that's the argument. [right][snapback]745389[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Dude....you've always cracked me up with your generalizations about Lifeteen... You DO realize that Lifeteen follows a formula, right? Good music + relational ministry = bringing teens to Mass Bringing teens to Mass = bringing teens to the Eucharist Funny how it works, huh?
God Conquers Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 dUSt, I hear you. I think, however, that the type of music used at something like LifeTeen, can, aside from entertainment, lead toa greater understanding of the mass. I would agree that music should be theologically correct. Preferably Catholic authored as well. I think we'll begin seeing more of a movement towards good, solid, catholic, nice-sounding unhokey, praise and worship totally appropriate for Mass. Which will go nicely with the Gregorian Chant!
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 God Conquers, it was inDEED that called Vatican II rediculous (I'll continue to spell it wrong now... that is the worst thing you can do in a respectable discussion-laugh at someone's argument based on their typo) He called the idea that a type of music can have an inherent quality 'rediculous'... but my quote from Vatican II begins with distinguishing the types of music and what constitutes "sacred" music and only after that has been established is there even talk about the lyrical content.
God Conquers Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Fair enough. I apologize. My argument, however, stands.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:37 PM']God Conquers, it was inDEED that called Vatican II rediculous. He called the idea that a type of music can have an inherent quality 'rediculous'... but my quote from Vatican II begins with distinguishing the types of music and what constitutes "sacred" music and only after that has been established is there even talk about the lyrical content. [right][snapback]745399[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I called your interpretation "ridiculous". Funny how you construed my words to be that Vatican II was ridiculous... Slap that "phishy" image on me now, I suppose!
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 OMG! You called the idea that music by its instrumentals alone aside from its lyrical content can affect its inherent quality "rediculous" and "absurd". but look at the stuff 112 and 113 et cetera was sayin, it was talking about how instrumentals can cause the inherent quality. anyway, if you don't start showing me a tiny bit of respect in this discussion you're only hurting your own position.
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote]I think the truth of the matter is that many musicians think it is their right to use the mass as their stage because they know nobody would want to listen to it any other time.[/quote] As a liturgical musician I take exception to that.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:41 PM']anyway, if you don't start showing me a tiny bit of respect in this discussion you're only hurting your own position. [right][snapback]745408[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Al - I respect you because you're my brother in Christ. I just don't respect your position with regards to music in the Mass. Don't get the 2 mixed up. As far as my "position"...I believe I've made it quite clear time and time again... I have yet to stray from my position and you still have yet to show me where the instruments discussed earlier are forbidden from use in the Mass.
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Oct 3 2005, 09:42 PM']As a liturgical musician I take exception to that. [right][snapback]745411[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Just out of curiousity hot stuff - do you play an instrument as a music minister during the Mass?
Jaime Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='inDEED' date='Oct 3 2005, 11:46 PM']Just out of curiousity hot stuff - do you play an instrument as a music minister during the Mass? [right][snapback]745416[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I got my minor in guitar. I've played guitar at mass for over 20 years. Cam and I had about 25 pages on this very topic in the debate section.
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Also, your arguments about lifeteens successes with teens don't phase me for one very important reason: I know kids who were drawn AWAY from the Church by lifeteen. there's no way to put numbers on that. I know kids who went to lifeteen masses and committed some of the worst sacrilidges I can think of. I know of people who have made out in the blessed sacrament chapel. There's no numbers for that. For those lifeteen has been successful with, I am very happy. But in talking on this level of church policy, that is besides the point. There are more and more kids flocking to very very traditional churches... what of that? When talking Church policy, we ought to judge the nature of the music. sacred polyphony, as Vatican II mentions, lifts up both mind and heart in unity to God. INSTRUMENTALLY, I am not even talking about the lyrics. the other types of music have a great place, but not in the liturgy. they can be real good for people, but it's not proper to the liturgy.
God Conquers Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 Well gnight folks. I'm going to rest after a hard day of preaching Christ and His Church, and a mass, celebrated and presided over exuberantly by an Archbishop where a keyboard, acoustic and electric guitar, base, bongo, drum kit and voice lifted up 750 souls by music and the power of the Holy Spirit in worship of God the Father and His Son in the Eucharist, in prayer for our Holy Father and in witness to the New Evangelization of my country. God Bless NET!!!! Peace.
Cow of Shame Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote]I think the truth of the matter is that many musicians think it is their right to use the mass as their stage because they know nobody would want to listen to it any other time.[/quote] lol...except we've probably all come across musicians like that. At least the part about using worship time as a way to display their ego
inDEED Posted October 4, 2005 Author Posted October 4, 2005 One last question... This is open to anyone... Do you feel that music ministers who play the guitar, drums, piano, keyboard, percussion @ Mass are doing a disservice to the Church and going against Vatican II? A simple YES or NO will do.
Aloysius Posted October 4, 2005 Posted October 4, 2005 [quote name='inDEED' date='Oct 4 2005, 12:44 AM']Al - I respect you because you're my brother in Christ. I just don't respect your position with regards to music in the Mass. Don't get the 2 mixed up. As far as my "position"...I believe I've made it quite clear time and time again... I have yet to stray from my position and you still have yet to show me where the instruments discussed earlier are forbidden from use in the Mass. [right][snapback]745412[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I believe if you'll reread my posts I never said it was forbidden. in fact, I said it was allowed. but I emphasized the things that Vatican II emphasized-- gregorian chant and polyphony as preferred-- and then as Vatican Ii did I mentioned that other types are allowed. I'm using Vatican II as the governer of my position. [quote]Dude...your posts tire me...[/quote] I don't know why, it's not like you've made any effort to respond to them. I've shown Vatican II saying that certain types of music are most proper to the Roman Liturgy and better lift up mind and heart to God. You've just said my interpretation is wrong and lifeteen has high numbers. Athanasius only had a small band of followers once upon a time....
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