Just wondering...

[Philippe]

at least its bringing people to Mass! Then they can begin to understand from there. I think your missing the point, people enjoy the music and it encourages them to come back every sunday, even if its for the wrong reasons, they might start to see the beauty of the Church by attending Mass eventually and start coming for the right reasons

[dUSt]

[quote name='Philippe' date='Oct 3 2005, 10:26 PM']at least its bringing people to Mass! Then they can begin to understand from there. I think your missing the point, people enjoy the music and it encourages them to come back every sunday, even if its for the wrong reasons, they might start to see the beauty of the Church by attending Mass eventually and start coming for the right reasons
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Why not set some slot machines up in the lobby? How about a bikini car wash in the parking lot before mass? That'll get 'em there!

I'm being absurd, but only to make a point. It's not appropriate to attract people to mass for the wrong reasons. [b]Christ[/b] is why people go to mass, and we disrespect Him when we start to invent ways to to "attract" people, when He should be the [b]only[/b] reason.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

dUSt had brought up a good point before to have a shorter Mass with little or no music and then have a jam session or band afterwards... I thought it was a good idea...

[dUSt]

Right. Why are musicians so offended when they are told that the music they play isn't appropriate for mass? Why can't they just play after mass? Before mass? If people are truly being attracted to mass because of [b]their[/b] music, then [b]surely[/b] they'll stay after mass to hear it, right? Give me a break. I think the truth of the matter is that many musicians think it is their right to use the mass as their stage because they know nobody would want to listen to it any other time.

[Aloysius]

since ancient times we have NEVER used the mass as an evangelism tool. preaching in the streets is an evangelism tool. missionary work and charity work are evangalism tools. the Mass was the celebration and sacrifice of the community already won over to Christ.

Jesus didn't give the Apostles a mass until He had taught them for three years. The early Christians forbid non-Christians from being in the mass. Later, they allowed non-Christians who intended to become Christians eventually to be in the mass up until a certain point before the consecration where they would have to leave.

The Liturgy is not subject to people's personal preferences.

And my quote from the Second Vatican Council is dead on. In that section I quoted it is talking about NOTHING other than chant and organ music. It says other forms of [i]sacred[/i] music especially polyphony. this does not refer to drum-beat-heavy music.

Then in the next section it talks about how missionaries should use local music to evangelize but DOESN'T say they should put that music in the liturgy.

Then in another section it comes out and says other instruments are allowed. Not welcome, not preferred, but allowed.

[God Conquers]

I know what primacy means. And I agree. How could I not, it's Church teaching?

However, Al was purporting that the document was EXCLUSIVELY endorsing gregorian chant and polyphony when in fact, it was not doing that at all.

Also, polyphony does not have the same place as gregorian chant but is listed with "other types of music".

I'd prefer my parish spent $500 on a bongo than $50 000 on an organ. And used the $45 000 to keep the roof from falling in.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

yeah... I think many people find Mass to be a place to showcase their musical abilities... even in the pews my friends show off their singing all the time, but they talk throughout the rest of the Mass... drives me nuts...

I enjoy the daily Masses at my home parish because there is no music except for the enterance hymn.

[Brother Adam]

Dust is soo right on this issue

[God Conquers]

Allowed is allowed.

I wish everyone understood sacred music the same way we do. Unfortunately they don't. They think it smells of elderberries and is boring. (not my opinion but definately what some people think.)

Why does guitar and drum driven P&W have to be protestant?

I attend masses where CATHOLIC WRITTEN and theologically correct music is played... with guitar and drums. It rocks. It's sacred. It even has latin and greek in it.

[Philippe]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Oct 3 2005, 08:42 PM']Allowed is allowed.

I wish everyone understood sacred music the same way we do. Unfortunately they don't. They think it smells of elderberries and is boring. (not my opinion but definately what some people think.)

Why does guitar and drum driven P&W have to be protestant?

I attend masses where CATHOLIC WRITTEN and theologically correct music is played... with guitar and drums. It rocks. It's sacred. It even has latin and greek in it.
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i feel the same way with you, the music that we play at Mass is mostly written by the people playing it and its all really Catholic. I just wish we could stop arguing about it so much

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

I find it amazing that this is the one topic that divides so many phatmassers...

[Brother Adam]

There is something both transcendant and fulfilling about traditional sacred music that is lacking in praise and worship. It can be very emotionally fulfilling and there is a certian 'fix' to be had, but having been in a protestant church which solely focused on p and w and having now been to a mass with traditional sacred music there is no comparison. None at all. It takes you palces praise and worship never can.

[God Conquers]

And Praise and Worship has a populist and catechetical appeal whichtraditional music can't come close to touching.

I advocate both. I think both are necessary for a balanced experience of faith and music.

[Brother Adam]

becuase it is built on an emotional basis it doesn't have true catechetical appeal any more than person based catechesis does. Once it stops giving the same high as it did when the person first came to the meeting or mass they move on. It comes back to what Dust said - why are the people coming? The most charasmatic priest I know (and he is extremely involved with the CM) believes that chant takes priority above p and w every time.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Oct 3 2005, 11:37 PM']I know what primacy means. And I agree. How could I not, it's Church teaching?

However, Al was purporting that the document was EXCLUSIVELY endorsing gregorian chant and polyphony when in fact, it was not doing that at all.

Also, polyphony does not have the same place as gregorian chant but is listed with "other types of music".

I'd prefer my parish spent $500 on a bongo than $50 000 on an organ. And used the $45 000 to keep the roof from falling in.
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polyphany is listed with the types of [i]sacred[/i] music.

then in another part it goes on to allow other types of instruments and music.

here are all the sections:
[quote][b]
[b]112[/b] The mussical tradition of the universal church constitutes a priceless treasrue, more so than other artistic expressions, especially insofar as the sacral chant which is superimposed onto words makes a necessary and integral contribution to solemn liturgy.

The use of worshipping music has obviously been strongly affirmed, both in scripture and by the fathers and popes.  More recently, these last, beginning with St. Pius X, have brought out more clearly the ministerial role of sacral music in theservice of the Lord.

And so, the closer the music of worship is linked to liturgical activity, the holier it will be-- whether it is expressing prayer more eloquently, or building unity of heart and mind, or enriching the rites of worship with greater solemnity.  The church approves of all forms of true art if they have the necessary qualities, and receives them into divine worship.

In this light, this holy council, continuing the norms and rules of church tradition and discipline, and keeping in mind the purpose of music in worship, that is, the glory of God and the growth in holiness of believers, has made the following stipulations.

[b]113. [/b] When singing is used to heighten the celebration of religious services, with ministers of worship taking part and the people actively joining in, the liturgical activity takes on a richer charecter.
As for the lagnuage to be used, the instructions of artical 36 should be followed; for mass, see artical 54; for sacrametns, see artical 63; for the divine office, see artical 101.
[b]114[/b] Very great efforst should be made to preserve and devlop the rich heritage of music in churches.  The growth of choirs should be energetically fostered, especially in cathedral churches.  At the same time, bishops and others in positions of pastoral responsibility should make strenuous efforts to see that the whole gathering of believers are able to take the active part which is proper to them in any event of worhsip meant to be conducted through song, in keeping with artilcles 28 and 30.

[b]115[/b] A lot should be made of musical education and of musical activity in seminaries, in noviceships and houses of studies for religious of boths exes, and in other catholic schools and instituitons.  Thus, in order for this education to become a reality, professors put in charge of teaching the music of worshipshould be thouroughly trained.

[b]116[/b] The church recognises Gregorian chant as something special to the Roman liturgy, which should thus, other things being equal, be given a place of primacy in liturgical activity.  Other sorts of sacral music, especially of course polyphony, are in no way excluded from the celebration of religious services, provided that htey fit in with the spirit of the liturgical event, in keeping with article 30.

[b]117[/b] The standard edition of the books of Gregorian chant is to be completed; moreover, a more critical edition should be prepared of the books that have already been edited following the reform of St. Pius X.

It would also be goodi f an edition comprising simpler melodies could be prepared, for use in smaller churches.

[b]118[/b] Religious singing by the people is to be resourcefully encouraged, so as to enable the voices of believers to ring out in their religious devotions and worship--and indeed in liturgical events--following the norms and provisions officially laid down.

[b]119[/b] In some parts of the world, especially in mission areas, peoples are found who have a musical tradition of their won, a tradition which has great importances for their religious and cultural way of life.  This music must be taken with due seriousness; suitable scope is to begiven for it to contribute both to their devleopment of their sense of the religious, and to the adaptation of religious worship to their particular temperament, in keeping wiht articles 39 and 40. 

For this reason, special care should be taken in the musical training of missionaries, so that, as far as possible, they will be able to encourage the traditional music of these peoples in schools, in choirs, and in acts of worship.

[b]120[/b]The pipe organ should be held in great honour in the Latin church, in that it is the tradiitonal musical instrument, whose sounds can add a remarkable dignity to the ceremonies of the church, and powerfully raise minds and hearts to God and to things above.

At the same time, other instruments may be brought into the worship of God, at the discretion of the competant local church authority and with its agreement--following articles 22 2, 37, and 40-- insofar as they are suitable for purposes of worship or can be made so, insofar ast hey cohere with the dignity of the temple, and insofar ast hey really contribute the building up of believers.

[b]121[/b]Those who work with music, and who have absored the spirit of Christianity, should feel themsevles called to cultivate the music of worship, and to contribute to its rich traditions.

They should bring together compositions which exhibit the charecteristics of true worshipping music, and which can be sung not only by major choirs, but which are also suitable for more modest ones, and encourage the whole gathering of believers actively to take part.

The texts which are chosen for the music of worship should be in conformity with catholic teaching: indeed, they should draw principally on scripture and on sources from within the liturgy.[/quote]

Just some notes: in the beginning it talks about how the type of music should call upon the mind and heart, just like I was saying about the intellect and the passions. Notice when it mentions sacred polyphony and the pipe organ it says that this is the type of music that raises up mind and heart to God. It is clear that rome views types of music as having inherent charecteristics apart from their lyrical quality.

Rome uses very strong language and arguments in support of the sacred deposit of music in the Church, and some allowances for pastoral reasons to other types of music.

one more note, in the section where it admits other instruments to divine worship, I noticed it did not specifically mention the roman liturgy. while it is apparent that it has been interpretted to mean the liturgy, all words of a council are chosen carefully and in the context of everything else I think the intention of the council fathers was very very very far from bringing guitars and drums into the roman liturgy.