Ahem.....

[Cam42]

Pope Benedict XVI is reviewing plans for papal liturgical celebrations, the Vatican's top liturgist has disclosed.

Archbishop Piero Marini, the master of ceremonies for papal liturgies, spoke to the Italian internet site on March 20, during a visist to Milan for the publication of his book, Liturgy and Beauty. Archbishop Marini revealed that Pope Benedict XVI has been more demanding than his predecessor in watching plans for liturgical celebrations at the Vatican.

Second, this summer he is going to begin drafting his Apostolic Exhortation for October. A couple juicy predictions:

The Vatican source said that the exhortation would include an invitation to greater use of Latin in the daily prayer of the Church and in the Mass "with the exception of the Liturgy of the Word" as well as in large public and international Masses.

[b]The document would also encourage a greater use of Gregorian chant and classical polyphonic music; the gradual elimination of the use of songs whose music or lyrics are secular in origin, as well as [i][u]the elimination of instruments that are [color=red]"inadequate for liturgical use,"[/color] such as [color=blue]the electric guitar or drums,[/color][/u][/i] although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.[/b]

Lastly, the Pope is expected to call for "more decorum and liturgical sobriety in the celebration of the Eucharist, excluding dance and, as much as possible, applause."

All this from the author of the Spirit of the Liturgy. I'm shocked and appalled.


All this from CWNews.....and I just called (via internet) my priest friend who works in Rome.....it is more or less a confirmation of what is actually going to happen....

Time to put the guitars away......aw' shucky darns (snaps fingers really hard)....it realllllllly breaks my heart......NOT!!!!!!!

And for a certain few.......how could it be that this pope is more attentive to the Liturgy than his predecessor? Didn't I say something about that once or twice?

[heyyoimjohnny]

Holy cow, dude, I am SO psyched!

[Brother Adam]

Could we have the source pretty please?

Edited March 21, 2006 by Brother Adam

[indescribable]

Are you going to expect young people to want that? We don't understand the beauty behind that. No one has ever taught us that. How am i going to tell my chior that they are not adequate to glorify God? Did God not tell us to praise him with the lyre?

[Cam42]

[quote name='indescribable' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:18 PM']Are you going to expect young people to want that? We don't understand the beauty behind that. No one has ever taught us that. How am i going to tell my chior that they are not adequate to glorify God? Did God not tell us to praise him with the lyre?
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[/quote]

Actually, yes. There is no defense for putting the profane (ie. secular) into the sacred.....sorry....that dog won't hunt.

I also expect the young people to be obedient to the Pope and his requests.

[indescribable]

how can glorifying God be profane in any sense?

[Cam42]

[quote name='indescribable' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:23 PM']how can glorifying God be profane in any sense?
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[/quote]

When it is not done in an appropriate way.......

Here is what my mentor says on the subject.

[quote name='Mons. Richard J. Schuler']The question, "What is sacred music," put to the average Catholic, will no doubt elicit the answer that "sacred music is hymns." And in the lived experience of most Catholics today, that is the extent of what they know to be sacred music. On Sunday, they sing four hymns at Mass. In most parishes, is there anything else?

For those people who attend symphony orchestra concerts, and those who have an interest in recorded music, there is the possibility of developing a knowledge of and an appreciation for the vast repertory of sacred music, the inheritance of centuries and a veritable treasure house of beauty, because many of these compositions, written originally for the Church, have become standard repertory in most concert series and record catalogs. Some may have sung one or the other great choral masterpiece of religious music in college choral ensembles, and even some high school groups have performed a few challenging selections.

The II Vatican Council clearly ordered the preservation and fostering of the great treasury of church music, beginning with the Gregorian chant up to the most modern compositions. This is to be done within the setting of liturgical worship, not merely in concert form. Most of this vast repertory that spreads across centuries of human achievement demands trained groups of singers and instrumentalists to perform. It is art and demands skill and training in the musicians needed to perform it. It is the highest form of human artistic endeavor, worthy of God and His worship.

The Vatican Council did, indeed, order the singing of the congregation in all those parts of the liturgy that truly belong to the competency of all the people. This order is not in contradiction to the other decree of the conciliar fathers demanding the fostering of choral music. The same body cannot be in opposition to itself in its decrees. Both the singing of the choir and the singing of the congregation have their proper places in solemn liturgy.

It is a strange spirit (perhaps the "spirit of Vatican II"?) that has led to the dismissal of choirs, the abandoning of polyphonic music, especially in the Latin language. In order to justify such a position, some (Rev. Frederick McManus, for example) have announced that the treasury of church music is to be fostered "in concerts." Others (Fr. Joseph Gelineau, for example) have simply stated that polyphonic choral music is not intended for use in the liturgy, nor should church music even attempt to reach the perfection one might well expect in concert performances.

Thus the hymn has replaced the settings of the Mass texts; the congregation has been substituted for the choir; the vernacular has superceded the Latin language; the guitar and piano have pushed aside the pipe organ and the orchestra. What is left of the treasury of sacred music for the parish liturgy? Four hymns!

Sadly, this is the present state of church music, its study and its performance, not only in the parishes, but in the schools, especially those for the training of future priests. Again, a direct violation of the conciliar decrees on sacred music by seminary authorities, done knowingly and willingly, has deprived the Catholic people and their future priests of their rightful inheritance.

One keeps asking "why?" The first and most charitable answer is always that those who are implementing the conciliar decrees in this country are ignorant of the treasury of sacred music, a terrible indictment of professional educators. There is no question that many seminaries functioning before the council had inadequate music programs of study and performance, headed by incompetent instructors, but at least the norms were acknowledged even though the efforts to fulfill them were inadequate.

But another reason for the attack on sacred music as we have known it for fifteen hundred years is an anti-Roman position that wants to eliminate the ancient Roman liturgy and all it has professed and taught, especially what was transmitted through the medium of sacred music. The liturgy is the greatest teacher of the faith. Those who wished to change that faith understood that the changing of the liturgy (and its music) would result in the "protestantizing" of the Church. If one admits that the results of the liturgical reforms of the past twenty-five years can to some extent be laid to the ignorance of those in this country who made the rules following the council, it cannot be denied either that there was also a degree of hostility toward sacred music involved in the process.

The attack on the "sacred" was aimed directly at sacred music. Many denied the existence of anything that could be called sacred, despite the opening words of the 1967 instruction, "Musicam sacram." We have become used to secular tunes, secular instruments (piano, guitar, drums), secular performance practices as musical combos and performing soloists and dancers; all found their way into the liturgy, not enhancing its holiness but directly destroying the sacred quality that only truly sacred art can contribute to liturgical action.

The major question, "What makes music sacred?" has been answered in these pages a number of times (e.g., Vol. 107, No. 3 (Fall 1980); Vol. 112, No. 2 (Summer 1985). Last summer's symposium at Christendom College faced the very same question which is basic to all church music. But just as basic is the other major question, "What makes music art?" Involved in that is the vast area of musical training and education. Only the trained musician can answer what makes a given piece of music art. But many of the reformers have stumbled into this area without the proper knowledge or experience. A whole generation of poorly trained (or not trained at all) composers has appeared, producing words and notes that many publishers continue to hawk as sacred church music, even when most of it fails by both criteria: it is not sacred and it is not art. But it makes money! Some of it even parades as hymns on Sundays in our parishes and more often in the seminaries.

To give an answer to the question, "What is sacred music?," we must answer that it is the great treasury of music, written over the ages by the greatest composers for use in the sung liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, beginning with the Gregorian melodies and continuing on through the polyphonic pieces of the middle ages and the renaissance, up to the orchestral settings of the last three centuries and into our own time; it is simple for the singing congregation and more elaborate as the degree of musicianship increases. Pope Pius XII in his encyclical, "Musicae sacrae disciplina," beautifully summarized the role of sacred music.

"Thus, at the instance and under the sponsorship of the Church, sacred music, through the course of centuries, has traversed a long road by which, though sometimes slowly and laboriously, it has finally reached the heights: from the simple and natural Gregorian modes, which are, moreover, quite perfect in their kind, to great and even magnificent works of art which not only human voices, but also the organ and other musical instruments embellish, adorn and amplify almost endlessly. Just as this progress in the art of music shows clearly how dear to the heart of the Church it was to make divine worship more resplendent and appealing to Christian peoples, so too it made clear why the Church also must, from time to time, impose a check lest its proper purposes be exceeded and lest, along with the true progress, an element profane and alien to divine worship creep into sacred music and corrupt it."
Would that we might put into practice what Pope Pius XII called for and what the fathers of the II Vatican Council decreed, basing so much of their document on the great encyclical of Christmas 1955.[/quote]

Incidentally, he is a Fulbright Scholar in Music and is one of the most noted Liturgists/Sacred Musicians of the 20th Century.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='indescribable' date='Mar 21 2006, 03:23 PM']how can glorifying God be profane in any sense?
[right][snapback]916782[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Amen!!

But on the other hand whatever the church says we should obey, no matter our preference.

Question for Cam42:
Your profile says "Lord and Master of Orthodoxy" is this something phatmass put there or did you do that. Just wondering.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

good News!

if i knew some Catholics i would throw a party.

[heyyoimjohnny]

There's a time and place for everything. Electric guitars don't belong in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That connects us to the very same sacrifice of the Cross... and I'd be on my knees, no, my face, if I was before Christ on the Cross. Not bouncin' around on my guitar.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Mar 21 2006, 03:25 PM']When it is not done in an appropriate way.......

Here is what my mentor says on the subject.

[quote name='Mons. Richard J. Schuler']The question, "What is sacred music," put to the average Catholic, will no doubt elicit the answer that "sacred music is hymns." And in the lived experience of most Catholics today, that is the extent of what they know to be sacred music. On Sunday, they sing four hymns at Mass. In most parishes, is there anything else?

For those people who attend symphony orchestra concerts, and those who have an interest in recorded music, there is the possibility of developing a knowledge of and an appreciation for the vast repertory of sacred music, the inheritance of centuries and a veritable treasure house of beauty, because many of these compositions, written originally for the Church, have become standard repertory in most concert series and record catalogs. Some may have sung one or the other great choral masterpiece of religious music in college choral ensembles, and even some high school groups have performed a few challenging selections.

The II Vatican Council clearly ordered the preservation and fostering of the great treasury of church music, beginning with the Gregorian chant up to the most modern compositions. This is to be done within the setting of liturgical worship, not merely in concert form. Most of this vast repertory that spreads across centuries of human achievement demands trained groups of singers and instrumentalists to perform. It is art and demands skill and training in the musicians needed to perform it. It is the highest form of human artistic endeavor, worthy of God and His worship.

The Vatican Council did, indeed, order the singing of the congregation in all those parts of the liturgy that truly belong to the competency of all the people. This order is not in contradiction to the other decree of the conciliar fathers demanding the fostering of choral music. The same body cannot be in opposition to itself in its decrees. Both the singing of the choir and the singing of the congregation have their proper places in solemn liturgy.

It is a strange spirit (perhaps the "spirit of Vatican II"?) that has led to the dismissal of choirs, the abandoning of polyphonic music, especially in the Latin language. In order to justify such a position, some (Rev. Frederick McManus, for example) have announced that the treasury of church music is to be fostered "in concerts." Others (Fr. Joseph Gelineau, for example) have simply stated that polyphonic choral music is not intended for use in the liturgy, nor should church music even attempt to reach the perfection one might well expect in concert performances.

Thus the hymn has replaced the settings of the Mass texts; the congregation has been substituted for the choir; the vernacular has superceded the Latin language; the guitar and piano have pushed aside the pipe organ and the orchestra. What is left of the treasury of sacred music for the parish liturgy? Four hymns!

Sadly, this is the present state of church music, its study and its performance, not only in the parishes, but in the schools, especially those for the training of future priests. Again, a direct violation of the conciliar decrees on sacred music by seminary authorities, done knowingly and willingly, has deprived the Catholic people and their future priests of their rightful inheritance.

One keeps asking "why?" The first and most charitable answer is always that those who are implementing the conciliar decrees in this country are ignorant of the treasury of sacred music, a terrible indictment of professional educators. There is no question that many seminaries functioning before the council had inadequate music programs of study and performance, headed by incompetent instructors, but at least the norms were acknowledged even though the efforts to fulfill them were inadequate.

But another reason for the attack on sacred music as we have known it for fifteen hundred years is an anti-Roman position that wants to eliminate the ancient Roman liturgy and all it has professed and taught, especially what was transmitted through the medium of sacred music. The liturgy is the greatest teacher of the faith. Those who wished to change that faith understood that the changing of the liturgy (and its music) would result in the "protestantizing" of the Church. If one admits that the results of the liturgical reforms of the past twenty-five years can to some extent be laid to the ignorance of those in this country who made the rules following the council, it cannot be denied either that there was also a degree of hostility toward sacred music involved in the process.

The attack on the "sacred" was aimed directly at sacred music. Many denied the existence of anything that could be called sacred, despite the opening words of the 1967 instruction, "Musicam sacram." We have become used to secular tunes, secular instruments (piano, guitar, drums), secular performance practices as musical combos and performing soloists and dancers; all found their way into the liturgy, not enhancing its holiness but directly destroying the sacred quality that only truly sacred art can contribute to liturgical action.

The major question, "What makes music sacred?" has been answered in these pages a number of times (e.g., Vol. 107, No. 3 (Fall 1980); Vol. 112, No. 2 (Summer 1985). Last summer's symposium at Christendom College faced the very same question which is basic to all church music. But just as basic is the other major question, "What makes music art?" Involved in that is the vast area of musical training and education. Only the trained musician can answer what makes a given piece of music art. But many of the reformers have stumbled into this area without the proper knowledge or experience. A whole generation of poorly trained (or not trained at all) composers has appeared, producing words and notes that many publishers continue to hawk as sacred church music, even when most of it fails by both criteria: it is not sacred and it is not art. But it makes money! Some of it even parades as hymns on Sundays in our parishes and more often in the seminaries.

To give an answer to the question, "What is sacred music?," we must answer that it is the great treasury of music, written over the ages by the greatest composers for use in the sung liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, beginning with the Gregorian melodies and continuing on through the polyphonic pieces of the middle ages and the renaissance, up to the orchestral settings of the last three centuries and into our own time; it is simple for the singing congregation and more elaborate as the degree of musicianship increases. Pope Pius XII in his encyclical, "Musicae sacrae disciplina," beautifully summarized the role of sacred music.

"Thus, at the instance and under the sponsorship of the Church, sacred music, through the course of centuries, has traversed a long road by which, though sometimes slowly and laboriously, it has finally reached the heights: from the simple and natural Gregorian modes, which are, moreover, quite perfect in their kind, to great and even magnificent works of art which not only human voices, but also the organ and other musical instruments embellish, adorn and amplify almost endlessly. Just as this progress in the art of music shows clearly how dear to the heart of the Church it was to make divine worship more resplendent and appealing to Christian peoples, so too it made clear why the Church also must, from time to time, impose a check lest its proper purposes be exceeded and lest, along with the true progress, an element profane and alien to divine worship creep into sacred music and corrupt it."
Would that we might put into practice what Pope Pius XII called for and what the fathers of the II Vatican Council decreed, basing so much of their document on the great encyclical of Christmas 1955.[/quote]

Incidentally, he is a Fulbright Scholar in Music and is one of the most noted Liturgists/Sacred Musicians of the 20th Century.
[right][snapback]916785[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

He has some good info, but even better "OPINIONS"!!

[Cam42]

[quote]The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ. (DMS no. 61)[/quote]

[quote]An organ destined for liturgical use, even if small, should be designed according to the norms of organ building, and be equipped with the type of pipes suitable for sacred use. Before it is to be used it should be properly blessed, and as a sacred object, receive proper care. (DMS no. 62)[/quote]

[quote]Other instruments besides the organ, especially the smaller bowed instruments, may be used during the liturgical functions, particularly on days of greater solemnity. These may be used together with the organ or without it, for instrumental numbers of for accompanying the singing. However, the following rules derived from the principles stated above (no.60) are to strictly observed:

a) the instruments are truly suitable for sacred use;

b) they are to be played with such seriousness, and religious devotion that every suggestion of raucous secular music is avoided, and the devotion of the faithful is fostered;

c) the director, organist, and other instrumentalists should be well trained in instrumental techniques, and the laws of sacred music. (DMS no. 68)[/quote]

[quote][b]Musical instruments which by common acception, and use are suitable only for secular music must be entirely excluded from all liturgical functions, and private devotions. (DMS no. 70)[/b][/quote]

[quote]But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.(SC 120)[/quote]

[quote]....still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good [here meaning, sacred in nature] on hearing them (Tra le Sollecitudini 2).[/quote]

[quote]In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore:

1) The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter, carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individual peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should when be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.

2) To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.

3) Because liturgical laws often involve special difficulties with respect to adaptation, particularly in mission lands, men who are experts in these matters must be employed to formulate them. (SC 40)[/quote]

[quote]Besides the organ, other instruments can be called upon to give great help in attaining the lofty purpose of sacred music, so long as they play nothing profane nothing clamorous or strident and nothing at variance with the sacred services or the dignity of the place. Among these the violin and other musical instruments that use the bow are outstanding because, when they are played by themselves or with other stringed instruments or with the organ, they express the joyous and sad sentiments of the soul with an indescribable power. Moreover, in the encyclical Mediator Dei, We Ourselves gave detailed and clear regulations concerning the musical modes that are to be admitted into the worship of the Catholic religion. (DMS 59)[/quote]

[quote]Among the musical instruments that have a place in church the organ rightly holds the principal position, since it is especially fitted for the sacred chants and sacred rites. It adds a wonderful splendor and a special magnificence to the ceremonies of the Church. It moves the souls of the faithful by the grandeur and sweetness of its tones. It gives minds an almost heavenly joy and it lifts them up powerfully to God and to higher things. (DMS 58)[/quote]

DMS = De Musica Sacra
SC = Sacrosanctum Concilium
GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal

Ok....so here is the deal. The Church teaches clearly in all of these documents about Sacred music and the instruments that are suitable and truly apt. They talk about the organ being the most apt, it then goes on to talk about those instruments that are also suitable. It says specifically that smaller stringed instruments that can be played with a bow may also be used. This is supported later on, in later documents. The implication is that the stringed instruments will be played with a bow. It is obvious when one reads the documents in context. Look at the organic movement in the above quotes. There is no implication anywhre that the guitar is suitable or apt.

It does however say that those types of music that are raucous and suggests secularism should be avoided. Guitar music does this. Praise and worship music is not in harmony with the solemnity due Liturgy. A gathering or a praise and worship session, yep. In my car or room, yep....in the Mass, nope. The Church says as much.

There is no disharmony between the GIRM and the previous documentation. The implication is that the stringed instruments will be played with a bow. How do I say this? Because there is nothing to say anything to the contrary. There is all sorts of evidence to support that position.

The Church teaches about the organ, the human voice, smaller bowed abd stringed instruments...it mentions the violin, but not the guitar. It talks about the use of winds and brass in a limited use.

And all things being equal, the organ should be used. The Church is clear. Crystal clear. I see it, so do most musicologists that are authentically looking at the documentation. I can't believe that this has gone on this long. The Church is clear in her explictness and implictness......what more do you need?

[indescribable]

it is sacred because it is beautiful to a learned man. and how many of those learned men are in a normal congregation? now what's beautiful to you might not be beautiful to me, i like van gogh, you like renoir, but aren't they both beautiful? if the electric guitar is all i have, WHY isn't that good enough. why can't i pour my heart out in another way? i know the Most Holy Eucharist is a time for deep reflection, and I almost wish that I didn't have to sing at all during that time but at the same time I'm leading the people to think through the mystery they have just received. And some people wouldn't care a whim otherwise.

[Craftygrl06]

God Bless the Pope.
I would be severely disappointed to see any people here question him.













ok. enough being mature. EAT THAT LIFETEEN!!! hahahahahahhaahaaaaaaaaa


ooops, this is toledo_jesus
hahahahahahahahhahahaaaaaaaaa

Edited March 21, 2006 by Craftygrl06

[Cam42]

[quote name='indescribable' date='Mar 21 2006, 05:38 PM']it is sacred because it is beautiful to a learned man. and how many of those learned men are in a normal congregation? now what's beautiful to you might not be beautiful to me, i like van gogh, you like renoir, but aren't they both beautiful? if the electric guitar is all i have, WHY isn't that good enough. why can't i pour my heart out in another way? i know the Most Holy Eucharist is a time for deep reflection, and I almost wish that I didn't have to sing at all during that time but at the same time I'm leading the people to think through the mystery they have just received. And some people wouldn't care a whim otherwise.
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[/quote]

Sacred Music is not subjective. It is defined by the Church. We owe our assent to what is acceptable and what is not.

Again, I have shown through documents that only certain small stringed instrumentation, which can be played with a bow (Jimmy Page notwithstanding) is accepted.

If you can point to documentation which supports the use of secular instruments in the Liturgy, I would appreciate it. However, you will not be able to do so. I have offered you documentation on what is to be considered apt and suitable.

You need to be able to defend your position.