Liturgical abuses?

[curtins]

ok so my parish has a "kids mass" every sunday where basically they have youth be lectors, ushers, and Eucharistic ministers (must be confirmed to do the later), and alot of little kids come to this mass. The thing is during the homily our priest invites all the kids up to sit on the alter while he gives a homily to them. Then during the concecration, he again invites all the kids up to the alter. Isn't this liturgical abuse? In the past I had been an usher at this mass and just sent in my "aplication" to continue ushering at this mass, but if those are liturgical abuses, then should I not particiapte in it?


thanks

[Brother Adam]

I guess I have to admit I agree with what a long time orthodox DRE said today. "Your priest has to answer for the salvation of the souls of his parish and he is facing the fire of hell. Follow your priest and be obedient to him, even if you think he is wrong, unless it leads you into sin."

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[curtins]

but all faithful have an obligation to work to correct liturgical abuses

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:32 PM']but all faithful have an obligation to work to correct liturgical abuses
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Then pray.

[inDEED]

See...here's the thing - NO ONE HERE has a higher authority in your parish than your PRIEST.

If you're so "concerned", go to him.

I think you may have just posted this because you're looking for others to validate your "concern".

Aren't there other things you can do with your time? Pray, read a book, hang out with some friends, better yet - get involved with some sort of ministry @ your parish. All of these are more productive than coming on a message board and asking if your priest is "doing it right".

[Charms717RM1]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:32 PM']but all faithful have an obligation to work to correct liturgical abuses
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Yes,this is true. Correct me If I am mistaken, but from what your initial post said- you are not proposing to correct liturgical abuses, but to not participate in what you think may be liturgical abuse. I second Brother Adam's advice that you should be obedient to your pastor. However, if you truly feel that there is an abuse, I would reccomend that you make an effort to talk with the pastor one-on-one to express your concerns and to allow him to explain his actions. If this does not alleviate your concerns, you should go through appropriate channels to express them.

I think that if he has kids sitting on the altar, then there is something fishy going on. But to simply decide not to participate in the mass does nothing to correct the suspected liturgical abuse, nor does not taking this up with your pastor and his superiors if necessary.

good luck and God Bless,
Keith

Edited April 2, 2006 by Charms717RM1

[Dave]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:47 PM']See...here's the thing - NO ONE HERE has a higher authority in your parish than your PRIEST.

If you're so "concerned", go to him.

I think you may have just posted this because you're looking for others to validate your "concern".

Aren't there other things you can do with your time? Pray, read a book, hang out with some friends, better yet - get involved with some sort of ministry @ your parish. All of these are more productive than coming on a message board and asking if your priest is "doing it right".
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[/quote]

So according to you, we're supposed to turn a blind eye to liturgical abuse? Wrong! We're supposed to give priests the utmost respect, but sometimes respect means fraternal correction (albeit not in a confrontational, hostile way). And what Curtins' priest has been doing violates many rubrics. The Mass belongs to the Church; it is NOT the priest's personal possession that he may do with as he pleases.

And you're way out of line, acting so condescending to Curtins and brushing off his concerns as trivial and insinuating he has too much time on his hands and wants "validation." It's rather judgmental on your part. Didn't you say your user name, which is inDEED, comes from the Bible passage "Let us love not in word but in deed and truth"? Well then practice what you preach -- with Curtins AND with everyone else on this phorum (including me)!

Edited April 2, 2006 by Dave

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:13 PM']ok so my parish has a "kids mass" every sunday where basically they have youth be lectors, ushers, and Eucharistic ministers (must be confirmed to do the later), and alot of little kids come to this mass. The thing is during the homily our priest invites all the kids up to sit on the alter while he gives a homily to them. Then during the concecration, he again invites all the kids up to the alter. Isn't this liturgical abuse? In the past I had been an usher at this mass and just sent in my "aplication" to continue ushering at this mass, but if those are liturgical abuses, then should I not particiapte in it?
thanks
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[/quote]
Are there not documents pertaining to a childrens mass?

[inDEED]

OR he can do a simple search on this topic that's been REHASHED, DEBATED, and SCRUTINIZED OVER HUNDREDS OF TIMES!

[Brother Adam]

[quote]So according to you, we're supposed to turn a blind eye to liturgical abuse?  [/quote]

No, you are suppose to pray.

[quote]Wrong!  We're supposed to give priests the utmost respect, but sometimes respect means fraternal correction (albeit not in a confrontational, hostile way).[/quote]

Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest.

[inDEED]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:20 PM']And you're way out of line, acting so condescending to Curtins and brushing off his concerns as trivial and insinuating he has too much time on his hands and wants "validation."  It's rather judgmental on your part.  Didn't you say your user name, which is inDEED, comes from the Bible passage "Let us love not in word but in deed and truth"?  Well then practice what you preach -- with Curtins AND with everyone else on this phorum (including me)!
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[/quote]

Not way outta line...Just a man speaking his mind...

If you want to ignore what I'm sayin' on the forum - please do. The option is fairly simple to reach.

[inDEED]

Brother Adam has it right...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:24 PM']No, you are suppose to pray.
Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest.
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But you can ask him for clarification of something going on in the parish.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:29 PM']But you can ask him for clarification of something going on in the parish.
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Yes, but we don't faternally correct them. I don't think most people understand what priests go through on a daily basis, their pastoral concerns for the salvation of souls typically outweigh concerns of parishoners holding hands and such.

[inDEED]

His question concerned "correction", not "clarification".

[Jaime]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:13 PM']ok so my parish has a "kids mass" every sunday where basically they have youth be lectors, ushers, and Eucharistic ministers (must be confirmed to do the later), and alot of little kids come to this mass. The thing is during the homily our priest invites all the kids up to sit on the alter while he gives a homily to them. Then during the concecration, he again invites all the kids up to the alter. Isn't this liturgical abuse? In the past I had been an usher at this mass and just sent in my "aplication" to continue ushering at this mass, but if those are liturgical abuses, then should I not particiapte in it?
thanks
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[/quote]


Abuses can be approved by the residing bishop. While the abuses can make the mass illicit, it won't make it invalid.

Participate or pick another mass time

[Dave]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:24 PM']No, you are suppose to pray.
Unless you are a bishop or his spiritual director it is not your place to correct a priest.
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[/quote]

So then we can't even talk to our bishop about any priest who's committing liturgical abuses? We might as well keep our mouths shut about any priest who's molesting children.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this thread stinks of false obedience

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:32 PM']Yes, but we don't faternally correct them. I don't think most people understand what priests go through on a daily basis, their pastoral concerns for the salvation of souls typically outweigh concerns of parishoners holding hands and such.
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Absolutely.
Somewhere there are norms for childrens masses....

[dUSt]

First, talk to the priest. Ask him about his actions and how they align with church instruction regarding the liturgy (you might want to bring the specific documents with you). It's possible he has the bishop's approval, and if he does then he should tell you this. If things do[b] not [/b]get cleared up, then...

[color=green]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/color]

[i]6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters[/i]
[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon [b]or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law[/b], or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

Praying is a necessity, but action is sometimes required. The church tells us we should go to the local bishop before going to Rome. In the same line of thought, I think it's common courtesy to talk to the priest before going to he bishop.

FYI... I'm in the beginning stages of putting together some very charitable and respectful, "liturgical abuse flyers" that will be printable from this website. The idea would be to hand them to choir directors, EMCs, and priests after witnessing a liturgical abuse. They would be meant as a friendly "first step" of correcting abuses.