Liturgical abuses?

[cappie]

If the priest was to claim that he is acting in accordance with the Directory For Masses with children then the following note is of interest

Concerning Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children, I would refer you to number 4 of the 1974 decree of the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship, Postquam de Precibus:

"Use of a Eucharistic Prayer for Masses with Children is restricted to Masses that are celebrated with children alone or Masses at which the [b]majority of the participants are children.[/b]

"A community of children means one so considered by the Directory for Masses with Children, that is, one consisting of children who have not yet reached the age referred to as preadolescence."

If this is not the case then the priest is operating outside the guidelines, perhaps he is mistaken

[dUSt]

Thanks Father!

Also, it was pointed out to me that my stance on this issue might make me appear to be "on a pedestal". I hope that by me simply referring to official church documents, and attempting to defend these documents, I am viewed by most as simply being a servant to the church.

I welcome and encourage those of you who are arguing against my points to refer to church documents in support of your view--without them, we are no better off than Joe Shmoe non-denominational guy.

I pray that being labelled "on a pedestal" would also not apply to me if I were to attempt to defend the Real Presence in the Eucharist when dialoguing with Protestants. If that is the label I must bear, then so be it.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 01:34 AM']I welcome and encourage those of you who are arguing against my points to refer to church documents in support of your view--without them, we are no better off than Joe Shmoe non-denominational guy.
[right][snapback]933073[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
It's hard to do this when the documents get in the way of what you 'feel' is right.

Regarding bringing a concern to the priest directly... Were I a priest I would not appreciate somebody sending a concern that they had with me to my boss (Bishop) without first talking to me about it. As such, I would never avoid talking first to my priest about a concern that I had. The priest can then either:

1. Correct me by showing me why my concern is invalid or wrong.
2. Correct himself. Believe it or not this does happen.
3. Ignore my concern (knowing full well that my next step is writing the bishop a letter)

A few months ago a local pastor made an announcement that he would be performing the Annointing of the Sick at a healing Mass in a few weeks and he said that you don't have to be physically sick to need healing and that all were welcome to come forward for the annointing. I pointed out his error and the following week he corrected himself. He THANKED me for pointing out his misunderstanding. Going to the Bishop was not necessary.

[cappie]

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 2 2006, 06:34 PM'] you don't have to be physically sick to need healing and that all were welcome to come forward for the annointing. 
[right][snapback]933080[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

But you can be mentally ill to be anointed

[curtins]

ok I didn't really think this would get so heated.......

I think I'm going to write a letter to my priest about this.

as bro adam suggested I will pray about it and maybe even bring it up at youth group today. I'm actually not going to that mass today cause when I woke up my mom was still asleep and then she woke up and said she wanted to go later so......


thanks pham

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 2 2006, 12:54 AM']So, based on your limited experience, and speaking with employees, you feel that you are justified in ignoring the instruction given to us in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Why? Laziness? Okay, I suppose. [b]I'm[/b] definitely not comfortable doing that.
My point was that proper catechesis will not come without a proper liturgy, and I believe they are connected more than you may believe, but am too lazy to find the documents that point this out right now.
Great idea! So have you changed your stance from "Pray" to "Pray [b]and[/b] make a phone call"? If so, I'm glad we're getting somewhere! If not, I don't think you've made a strong enough case as to why we should so easily disregard the instructions in Redemptionis Sacramentum.
[right][snapback]933061[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

*not worth it*. you're not listening. whatever, its not surprising. Good luck with that. Please do post the letter you get back from the bishop.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[jasJis]

This is one of the reasons why I'm not a practicing Catholic any more. I couldn't attend a Mass without all the 'liturgical abuses' occupying most of my mind. Ignorance was bliss (and a little more holy). Licit/illicit, valid/invalid, proper,improper, good/bad, I practically had two canon lawyers whispering and arguing in each ear. Very unpleasant

curtins, in your attempt to 'correct' a priest, please consider your age, social position, and education. The benifit of the doubt should go to the priest. If you are that uncomfortable, Mateo has (in my non-Catholic opinion) the perfect solution. You are uncomfortable, you don't think it's right, you can't participate, and you will attend another mass. Simple. Do this in a conversation with the priest. The Holy Spirit will find more opportunity to work in a human conversation than a letter, in which, I agree Bro Adam is right, will be tossed to the side for more immediate and pressing concerns. Besides, what are YOUR qualifications to question a priest, director of liturgy, or bishop? Or you could find a person with an alphabet of degrees and classes and qualifications and get her/him to write the letter, that is, if they aren't already to busy correcting al the abuses in their own diocese...

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2006, 08:07 AM']This is one of the reasons why I'm not a practicing Catholic any more.  I couldn't attend a Mass without all the 'liturgical abuses' occupying most of my mind.  Ignorance was bliss (and a little more holy).  Licit/illicit, valid/invalid, proper,improper, good/bad, I practically had two canon lawyers whispering and arguing in each ear.  Very unpleasant

curtins, in your attempt to 'correct' a priest, please consider your age, social position, and education.  The benifit of the doubt should go to the priest.  If you are that uncomfortable, Mateo has (in my non-Catholic opinion) the perfect solution.  You are uncomfortable, you don't think it's right, you can't participate, and you will attend another mass.  Simple.  Do this in a conversation with the priest.  The Holy Spirit will find more opportunity to work in a human conversation than a letter, in which, I agree Bro Adam is right, will be tossed to the side for more immediate and pressing concerns.  Besides, what are YOUR qualifications to question a priest, director of liturgy, or bishop?  Or you could find a person with an alphabet of degrees and classes and qualifications and get her/him to write the letter, that is, if they aren't already to busy correcting al the abuses in their own diocese...
[right][snapback]933125[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Yeah I agree.I don't deny exactly what the documents say, those are legit routes one can take, but rather advocate proactive work that has, in the past, been known to be the most effective course of action to make the most changes over time for the greatest good. Building relationships. Gosh. What was I thinking!

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[Noel's angel]

My experience with regards to Liturgical abuse has been positive. My priest is encouraging when I ask him about various things that take place during Mass, especially during the Children's Masses we have once a month. He actually wants to know if he is doing something wrong, so as he can fix it because sometimes priests do things without realising that they're a bit iffy. I know that not all priests are the same, I have had a bad experience with a bishop with regards to Liturgical abuse.

Its difficult to get the right balance and not seem like you're telling the priest that you can do a better job than him. As long as you don't go in pointing fingers and saying 'you do this wrong and that wrong and I'm going to write to the bishop....' then I think it's perfectly reasonable to question your priest about certain aspects of the Mass. Humility is the key.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 2 2006, 10:25 AM']My experience with regards to Liturgical abuse has been positive.  My priest is encouraging [b]when I ask him[/b] about various things that take place during Mass, especially during the Children's Masses we have once a month.  He actually wants to know if he is doing something wrong, so as he can fix it because sometimes priests do things without realising that they're a bit iffy.  I know that not all priests are the same, I have had a bad experience with a bishop with regards to Liturgical abuse.

Its difficult to get the right balance and not seem like you're telling the priest that you can do a better job than him.  As long as you don't go in pointing fingers and saying 'you do this wrong and that wrong and I'm going to write to the bishop....' then I think it's perfectly reasonable to question your priest about certain aspects of the Mass.  Humility is the key.
[right][snapback]933181[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Same here. Asking questions does wonders better than "The such and such document says and you are in the wrong, so you need to change it." I've seen a lot of people try that, and I'm afraid that is the impression some people get from the constitution on the liturgy, that they have any right to do that. To me, just writing a letter is the whiners way out. Its another form of complaining. I think going above and beyond that is what we should strive for...

[dUSt]

Well, Bro Adam, you have changed your position from the beginning of this post then. I probably wouldn't even have replied in this thread if you had advocated phone calls and asking questions in the beginning. The reality is, earlier you said that upon witnessing a liturgical abuse your only remedy was to pray, and discouraged interaction with the priest. I'm glad you have changed your tone.

Attending another mass is not the answer. That's the Protestant solution. I have been guilty of this in my own life.

[Brother Adam]

I haven't changed my position anymore than you have. Remember, you were the one who implied that we should correct our priests. Then you said we should not correct our priests. Then you said you didn't really mean that we should correct our priests. I also suggested calling on the premise that you will figure out rather quickly that your letters will be ignored. Nice try.

The object of course is to win the war, even if it means losing a battle or two. That's what most bishops and priests have in mind. At least, that is what I have been taught, and I have faith in my edumacation.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Brother Adam

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 2 2006, 01:59 PM']I haven't changed my position anymore than you have. Remember, you were the one who implied that we should correct our priests. Then you said we should not correct our priests. Then you said you didn't really mean that we should correct our priests. I also suggested calling on the premise that you will figure out rather quickly that your letters will be ignored.  Nice try. [/quote]
"Correct" your priest, "ask" your priest, "talk to" your priest. Who cares what is "implied" or how you define it? How you interpret or pick apart my language, word structure or "implied meaning" is really irrelevant and an attempted distraction to the real point and a waste of time (and you know this).

We should correct/ask/talk to our priests. Don't distort the method of which I proposed to do this though. We shouldn't walk up to them and say, "Look Father, you're doing this wrong, and that wrong and this isn't allowed, blah, blah, blah". That would be unproductive, and I never advocated that. What we [b]should[/b] do is exactly what Redemptionis Sacramentum instructs us to do. I suggested talking to the priest first out of common courtesy.

Don't try to get out of the fact that you are diminishing the value of Redemptionis Sacramentum by telling us that it's instructions are futile. You are the one that has failed to quote a church document and are trying to feed us a personal viewpoint not in line with church teaching. I'm simply attempting to defend and promote a recent, official church document that was obviously put out for a reason. What you [b]are[/b] doing is making the perfect case of [b]why[/b] this document was needed at this time, and sadly, is largely being ignored (suprisingly to me, by apparently devout Catholics).

[quote]The object of course is to win the war, even if it means losing a battle or two. That's what most bishops and priests have in mind. At least, that is what I have been taught, and I have faith in my edumacation.
[right][snapback]933350[/snapback][/right][/quote]
But you cannot invent or promote your own ideas of how to win the battle. Be guided by the church. Be obedient. And please, address actual points and stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

[b]Point:[/b] You are undermining the instructions in Redemptionis Sacramentum because you don't think they work. .. Please address this point, preferably from the perspective of being obedient to the church.

[jasJis]

OMG! A fight! And I thought dUSt never posted any more.
This is gonna be good. Your turn, Bro.

[heyyoimjohnny]

dUSt, do you have a link for the Redemptionis Sacramentum document so I can read it?




p.s. this argument is kinda depressing.

Edited April 2, 2006 by heyyoimjohnny

[Cam42]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20IV"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url]

There ya go. Especially nos. 183-184.

[Era Might]

[quote]Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.

--Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy "Sacrosanctum Concilium"[/quote]

The Liturgy is not our play thing. It is the public worship of the Church, and this is why Liturgical abuse is such a serious matter. The Holy Father has spoken at length in the past of the need, quote, to "be more obedient to the norms, not as a juridical positivism, but really as sharing, participating what is given to us from the Lord in the Church." It's not about legalism, but truly uniting oneself with the Universal Church in her prayer.

In dealing with Liturgical abuse, Canon Law upholds our right to actively correct it, so long as we always keep the virtues in mind:

[quote]They [the Laity] have the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church. They have the right also to make their views known to others of Christ's faithful, but in doing so they must always respect the integrity of faith and morals, show due reverence to the Pastors and take into account both the common good and the dignity of individuals.

--Canon 212[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

Sigh. I really don't have time to get into a pissing match with you, but since you absolutely insist.

[quote]but all faithful have an obligation to work to correct liturgical abuses[/quote]

I said: "Then pray." as well as "Your priest has to answer for the salvation of the souls of his parish and he is facing the fire of hell."

"545. Why is our prayer efficacious?

Our prayer is efficacious because it is united in faith with the prayer of Jesus. In him Christian prayer becomes a communion of love with the Father. In this way we can present our petitions to God and be heard: "Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full' (John 16:24)" - Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

"But among the lay faithful this one baptismal dignity takes on a manner of life which sets a person apart, without, however, bringing about a separation from the ministerial priesthood or from men and women religious. The Second Vatican Council has described this manner of life as the "secular character": "The secular character is properly and particularly that of the lay faithful."" - Christifideles Laici 15.

"To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying, and governing in his name and by his power." - CCC 873

"The spiritual gift they [priests] have received in ordination prepares them, not for a limited and restricted mission, but for the fullest, in fact the universal mission of salvation 'to the end of the earth." - CCC 1565

"By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in the temporal afairs and directing them according to God's will." CCC 897


I never denied or downplayed the document you quoted. I hadn't even been introduced. I happen to think prayer is greater than writing letters. I never denied the importance of the document, but said writing letters was a valid means of seeking to better the Church.

Cmom said:

"But you can ask him for clarification of something going on in the parish."

It seems everyone agreed a gentle approach, rather than "correcting" which does imply something rather harsher, than clarification or seeking answers. It implies and authority over. Parents "correct" children, not the other way around.

Hence I said "Yes, but we don't faternally correct them." I made the disticntion right there.

You went on to say "Not according to Redemptionis Sacramentum."

The document says: "Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ's faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law,"

Of course they do. Anyone is free to. However, I think you will be hard pressed to find a priest that won't covet your prayers as much as your complaints. Now, you were of course right to say that it is important to talk to a priest. However EENS and Dave attacked my reasoning to pray, which I was addressing, not your post.

Now, moving on, I said

"Ultimately, it is quite likely you will be ignored unless it is a very serious abuse"

I believe this is true. I'm willing to bet, in most cases, letters complaining about holding hands, folks genuflecting instead of bowing during communion, the use of guitars, and so on, probably wont be addressed in the immediate by a bishop. I also have faith that our bishops know the state of what is going on in their flocks. I also believe if the issue is serious enough, that a diocesian office, though maybe not the bishop himself will respond.

Now, curtins original question was about if he should continue ushering if the priest is going to let the kids gather around the altar. I think the greatest good is always to pray. That is why I suggested prayer when I don't know the priest, the parish, or all of the details.

Now, you are free to continue fighting me if you want. I haven't necessarily disagreed with anything you or Cam has said.

[curtins]

I mentioned this whole thing to my mom- she basically said that I am not going to write a letter to my priest and that I'm taking it too far. Sooooooo


Does anyone know exactly where it says that the priest can't have people up to the alter ? (especially at concecration)


thanks

btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc

I'm not planning on marching into the rectory yelling and screaming lol

Edited April 3, 2006 by curtins

[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 2 2006, 07:36 PM']I mentioned this whole thing to my mom- she basically said that I am not going to write a letter to my priest and that I'm taking it too far. Sooooooo
Does anyone know exactly where it says that the priest can't have people up to the alter ? (especially at concecration)
thanks

btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc

I'm not planning on marching into the rectory yelling and screaming lol
[right][snapback]933520[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I'm still working on learning more about church documents, but here are a couple of links that might help you.
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0276.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ion/re0276.html[/url]

In my opinion, you should address the issue with your priest before taking any further action. I'm sure you will be extremely nice about it, but make sure it is done with complete respect so that it isn't assumed that you think you are more qualified and know more than him. Perhaps he hasn't really thought about it before and by saying something he'll do some research and decide to change things. If not, then write a letter to your bishop.

I'm currently going through a similar situation with liturgical abuses. I've been doing some research and I'll probably go to the chancery to see if there are any diocese documents on it, but then I will talk with the priest. If nothing changes, I will write to the bishop and pray that things are taken care of.

Good Luck!! and make sure that before you write a letter or talk with him that you pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.