Liturgical abuses?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='curtins' date='Apr 2 2006, 06:36 PM']
btw if i brought it up with him whether it be through letter, meeting etc--- I would be as charitable as possible etc
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Just think of him as your father and act accordingly.

[dUSt]

When the church instructs us that "everyone do [b]all[/b] in their power" to protect the liturgy, and you limit this to praying, with no other action, then I think that comes down to personal limitations. It's a simple matter of conscience I suppose. If you feel praying is the most effective way for [b]you[/b] to use [b]all[/b] your power, then that's a matter of your conscience. Simple.

I'll cease with this dialogue, as I think I've done all I can. I'll simply close by copying a section of Redemptionis Sacramentum, along with dictionary definitions, verbatim. Note the highlights. Words in red will be defined.

[b]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/b]

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, [b]let [color=red]everyone[/color] do [color=red]all[/color] that is in their power [/b]to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. [b]This is a most serious [color=red]duty incumbent [/color]upon each and every one, and all are [color=red]bound[/color] to carry it out [/b]without any favouritism.

[184.] [b]Any Catholic[/b], whether Priest or Deacon [b]or lay member [/b]of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse...

[b]eve·ry·one[/b] - Every person; everybody.
[b]all [/b]- Being the utmost possible of:
[b]du·ty[/b] - Moral obligation:
[b]in·cum·bent [/b] - Imposed as an obligation or duty; obligatory:
[b]bound[/b] - Being under legal or moral obligation:

[Brother Adam]

I'm glad. Now i can go back to spending my research time helping one young Catholic lady that she doesn't have to engage in lesbian acts to please her husband, another young man that suicide is not the best way to avoid his debts, and another friend that the Catholic Church does not that you can choose to be saved after death.

[element]

[quote name='heyyoimjohnny' date='Apr 2 2006, 02:51 PM']p.s. this argument is kinda depressing.
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Welcome to most EVERY argument on the forum...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='inDEED' date='Apr 1 2006, 09:47 PM']If you're so "concerned", go to him. [right][snapback]932821[/snapback][/right][/quote]
[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 1 2006, 10:54 PM']No need to add the cute smiley.....it is our RIGHT to expect a valid and licit Mass according to the Roman Rite.  If  we don't get it, we should make the abuses known to the pastor, then the bishop, then if all else fails, the Holy See.

It is crystal clear.

As my Liturgical mantra has been for a while now:

[b]WE HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS, BUT WE DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE MASS THE WAY WE WANT IT.[/b][right][snapback]932998[/snapback][/right][/quote]thank you.
[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:00 PM']Let [b]us[/b] not correct the priest at all, as it is the bishop's job. What we [b]can[/b] do is talk to the priest before going to the bishop.[right][snapback]933011[/snapback][/right][/quote]

[dUSt]

[quote name='heyyoimjohnny' date='Apr 2 2006, 03:51 PM']p.s. this argument is kinda depressing.
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Why do you think this argument is depressing?

It's not really an argument anyway. It's mostly just one person telling us why he doesn't feel it's necessary to follow the obligations defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum. I pray that this isn't an FUS influenced thing.

[ardillacid]

sounds like fun, invite me next time

[jezic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2006, 11:18 PM']Bishops typically know exactly what is going on. Y
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Our bishop has said many times that he really doesn't know what is going on in most of the parishes. He tries to keep up on everything and the Vicar Generals are amazing, but there is to much for him to do.

We have a small diocese.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 3 2006, 11:42 AM']Why do you think this argument is depressing?

It's not really an argument anyway. It's mostly just one person telling us why he doesn't feel it's necessary to follow the obligations defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum. I pray that this isn't an FUS influenced thing.  [right][snapback]934202[/snapback][/right][/quote]and on that note, this is getting moved to the debate table

[Theoketos]

What a shame that we even have to talk about such things.

They best way to change the way the Liturgy prepared in your parish is to join whatever committee is in charge of preparing the liturgy. Every Parish I have been to or know of that has the abuses has one of these. This is were most of the whacky ideas come from. And if you go with the documents and knowledge documents only this is not enough. You must go with Charity. People respect that.

In my own Parish, after I did this we went from having the Tabernacle in the old broom closet to being in the center of the Church behind the altar, from the priest wearing a shirt and tie to wearing a cassock with clerics, from washing only women’s feet on holy Thursday to washing only men’s feet, all like the rubrics demand, from Haugan and Hass to Chant and even certain Mass parts in Latin.

Writing letters, should be a last resort, and have a weight behind that can burn bridges and worse they probably are inconsequential immediately. This however does not mean that they should not be sent.

It must be noted that in the end doing anything is better then doing nothing, we must do something. Pray and Action, words and deeds.

[dUSt]

How would a bishop knows what is going on at each parish? Do they have spies? If I was a bishop, I'd have a "quality control team". Similar to mystery shoppers employed by corporations. haha

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 3 2006, 12:30 PM']Similar to mystery shoppers employed by corporations. haha
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[JudgedByGod]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 3 2006, 02:29 PM']They best way to change the way the Liturgy prepared in your parish is to join whatever committee is in charge of preparing the liturgy. [right][snapback]934259[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Do they really have those? I have never heard of any kind of committee like that before. If I can find one, I will be sure to join! Although I have a feeling that even the people on the committee would think I'm wrong.

[jasJis]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 3 2006, 11:42 AM']Why do you think this argument is depressing?

It's not really an argument anyway. It's mostly just one person telling us why he doesn't feel it's necessary to follow the obligations defined in Redemptionis Sacramentum. I pray that this isn't an FUS influenced thing. 
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[/quote]dUSt,
That is kinda provoking. I didn't know you and Adam didn't get along. Adam was advising against 'correcting the priest' in his advice to a kid. After that, you guys argued about nuances and semantics. I thought you guys knew each other better than that.
btw. Does FUS seem too 'liberal' to you or something?

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 3 2006, 04:27 PM']dUSt,
That is kinda provoking.  I didn't know you and Adam didn't get along.  Adam was advising against 'correcting the priest' in his advice to a kid.  After that, you guys argued about nuances and semantics.  I thought you guys knew each other better than that.
btw.  Does FUS seem too 'liberal' to you or something?
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[/quote]
We really need a pot stirring smilie...

[Fidei Defensor]

I dont like this "either-or" attitude on anyone's part.

Talk with your priest if you are ever concerned about abuses. Ask him about certain things, and establish understanding and dialogue.

Then, if the priest truly believes that he has the authority to change the Mass, contact the Bishop.

However, through this whole process, pray.

Dont get me wrong, prayer is the most powerful thing we have. However, God does want action on our part too. We shouldnt just sit around and expect that prayer alone will fix everything. We can act to make sure our prayer can be answered by taking the appropriate action in addressing liturgical abuse.

[cappie]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]LINK[/url]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 3 2006, 04:27 PM']dUSt,
That is kinda provoking.  I didn't know you and Adam didn't get along.  Adam was advising against 'correcting the priest' in his advice to a kid.  After that, you guys argued about nuances and semantics.  I thought you guys knew each other better than that.
btw.  Does FUS seem too 'liberal' to you or something?
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[/quote]

Yes, dUSt for quite some time has shown his strong distaste of "Brother Adam" but has never given a reason. It clearly shows anytime he does respond to anything I say by misconstruing everything I say to mean exactly what I am not saying, or implying. It does make me wonder how I am still on his personal favorites list i.e. I have a "tag".

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 3 2006, 01:30 PM']How would a bishop knows what is going on at each parish? Do they have spies? If I was a bishop, I'd have a "quality control team". Similar to mystery shoppers employed by corporations. haha
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[/quote]
Good idea...

[quote name='OLAM Dad' date='Apr 3 2006, 04:46 PM']We really need a pot stirring smilie...
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[/quote]
I've thought the same thing!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 3 2006, 04:23 PM']Yes, dUSt for quite some time has shown his strong distaste of "Brother Adam" but has never given a reason. It clearly shows anytime he does respond to anything I say by misconstruing everything I say to mean exactly what I am not saying, or implying. It does make me wonder how I am still on his personal favorites list i.e. I have a "tag".
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I love you. Arguing with you is how I show it. Blame it on my upbringing.

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 3 2006, 03:27 PM']dUSt,
That is kinda provoking.  I didn't know you and Adam didn't get along.  Adam was advising against 'correcting the priest' in his advice to a kid.  After that, you guys argued about nuances and semantics.  I thought you guys knew each other better than that.
btw.  Does FUS seem too 'liberal' to you or something?
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We get along great. I think he's just mad that I haven't sent him his free t-shirt for converting yet.

No, I don't think FUS is too liberal, but I've heard that some of the masses there can be a little over-the-top. I'm withholding judgement until I can visit myself though.

By the way, since you un-converted, you owe phatmass a t-shirt.