Phatmass FOR UNITY OF ALL RELIGIONS?

[Budge]

wanted to add to this thread

Rome does the EXACT opposite of what God teaches.
[size=6]
Exd 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: [u]but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images[/u].[/size]
[b]
[size=6]THIS DOES NOT SAY UNIFY WITH ALL RELIGIONS!!!!!!!!!!![/size][/b]

Edited July 2, 2006 by Budge

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1014578' date='Jun 29 2006, 10:48 AM']
Are you all upping the interfaith ante around here?

Going to invite more Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus to sing kumbuyah with?

I know the Catholic church is forming the one world church, but usually the goal isnt stated so blantantly.
[/quote]

1. God wishes all to come to him. Jesus died for the sins of all. We wish to work toward that goal.

2. Yes, we are working to form a one world church. Christ has one spouse, which is his body the church. The Catholic Church is that church (catholic comes from a greek word meaning 'universal.') Jesus commissioned his apostles to bring the pagan (ie the un-baptized, non-christian) into his flock. We have been in buisness since 33ad at the great comission and have not changed our policies. Such goal is stated blatantly.

3. We will continue to work towards this goal as charitably as possible, which includes work/dialogue. Also note the church will not change her beliefs to further relationships with other faiths. You seem to deny this policy and/or feel it is impossible. Please remind yourself that Jesus sat, talked and ate with sinners... yet remained pure.

4. We here at Phatmass tend to dislike kumbuyah.


[quote name='Budge' post='1014666' date='Jun 29 2006, 02:37 PM']
False religions are based on the lies of the garden--Read Genesis.[/quote]

The Catholic Church agrees with you 100% in this statement, meaning lies and pride are evil and lead to false religions, however we disagree on how to bring these people out of their error. We also disagree on whether the non-christian practices by man can begin to lead him to worship God, even when he is deceived in his religion. If you do not know why the Catholic church feels this way, you need to read up on the topic. Note documents of Vatican II.


[quote name='Budge' post='1014666' date='Jun 29 2006, 02:37 PM']
Havent you all ever heard of the FIRST COMMANDMENT?
[/quote] Yes we have. The 'first commandment' according to the Jews, Catholics/Protestants, or third list designed by anti-catholics (as each list of ten commandments is different)? Remenber, the numbering of the ten commandments is not listed in scripture.


Era, great quote from PXII.

[mongladz]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1016149' date='Jul 2 2006, 04:38 AM']
The shrine is open to anyone who wants to visit, nobody stands at the door and asks if you are catholic before you pray. [/quote]

Hello cmotherofpirl,

From the time that the Hindus desecrated the Sanctuary (2004), Fatima Shrine Rector Luciano Guerra has been hostile to traditional Catholics protesting the outrage. That hostility reared its head during the day of reparation on August 22.

On the previous day — Sunday, August 21 — a solemn High Mass was celebrated for the pilgrims in a field about a mile from the Fatima Shrine. Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X, was celebrant. Then on Monday, a low Mass was held at the same outdoor site, followed by a procession to the Shrine.

Upon arriving at the Shrine, the hundreds of priests, four bishops, many religious, and thousands of faithful, confronted a barricade that blocked their way to the Little Chapel of the Apparitions, even though the SSPX had made an agreement with Shrine authorities to be at the Little Chapel at that hour.

We should reach to our own.

[quote]Was not the ecemenical congress a call to all to pray for peace?[/quote]

It is, but the problem is which prayer? Ours or theirs?

[quote]The hindu item was based on a misunderstanding and that will NOT happen again. The Shrine is Catholic and will remain under Catholic control, no matter what any individual says.
[/quote]


Yeah, that's what we all want that the Shrine remains Catholic, and it still is. The problem is the Unity among other religions that in turn compromises our Faith and our Shrine.

Churchmen of old when confronting those who are steadfast in errors would say, “Let him be anathema.”

Churchmen of today when confronting those who are steadfast in error now say. “Let’s chat.”

Saint Joseph Cafasso said that when priest mixes with the world priest is always the loser. The same is true here. Catholic churchmen emerge from these little “chats” not as conquerors but as the conquered, saying things like: “Golly… he whom we once condemned isn’t such a bad chap after all. As a matter of fact, a lot of his ideas aren’t bad either. Not only does he have a number of things in common with us, but there are even a few things we can learn from him. So why don’t we seek some reasonable middle ground where we both can peacefully co-exist… it’s a big world and we all have something good to offer. Let’s not worry about our differences. Let’s concentrate on the positive and what we have in common.”

By this application of a worldly political diplomacy (which is actually surrender) Christ’s Church ceases to be the sole God-given teacher of mankind.

In the name of false charity and a deliberate misinterpretation of the Gospel passage “that all may be ONE” we now have the transformation of the Church militant into the Church dialoguing with all forms of atheistic and fake religions.

Sacred Scripture teaches that “He who loves danger will perish in it.” When a Churchman compromises with error he becomes infected with error. Because of his position as a teacher he will become a pumping station of error.

Perhaps it is right to reach out, and it is, but never compromise what our fathers have shred blood for. I stand for Rome, I am for the magisterium but I reject the errors. Not the Chruch but the men behind this compromises.

Peace!

mongladz

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016173' date='Jul 2 2006, 08:54 AM']
Pagan philosophies SHOULD BE SCORED AND REJECTED.

As an ex-pagan UU, I scorn and reject all the false religions and teachings I was given.

Does this mean the pope believes that Baal can be perfected and completed?

This is wrong by ALL Biblical standards.

False religions in the BIble are so rejected that all the idols and pillars and more are commanded by God to be BROKEN DOWN AND DESTROYED

This pretty much is admitting That Rome is at the top of the MYSTERY BABYLON PYRAMID.
[b]
en 35:2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that [were] with him, Put away the strange gods that [are] among you, and be clean, and change your garments:[/b]
[/quote]

Did you bother to actually finish reading it?

[quote name='Budge' post='1016180' date='Jul 2 2006, 09:04 AM']
wanted to add to this thread

Rome does the EXACT opposite of what God teaches.
[size=6]
Exd 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: [u]but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images[/u].[/size]
[b]
[size=6]THIS DOES NOT SAY UNIFY WITH ALL RELIGIONS!!!!!!!!!!![/size][/b]
[/quote]

Do you celebrate Easter and Christmas?

[jswranch]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016173' date='Jul 2 2006, 08:54 AM']
Pagan philosophies SHOULD BE SCORED AND REJECTED.

As an ex-pagan UU, I scorn and reject all the false religions and teachings I was given.[/quote]

Let us list things of pagan origin/philosophy: math, the zero, astronomy, science, greek, germanic languages (including english), treating your neighbor well, academics, history, easter bunny, christmas, santa claus, written language, libraries, centering prayer, plumming ..etc.

The biggest pagan philosophy embraced by the church may be...... reason. We look to the patterns of thought from Socrates (Aristotle and Plato). Let us remember Socrates believed there was a God, but doubted the gods of Greece. Socrates knew holiness and morality existed, but doubted the holiness and morals of the greek gods as defined by the pagans. What Socrates was looking for was Jesus, but he was not around yet. Socrates' method for weighing that which is not truth is still used today.

Perhaps you need redefine what you mean by pagan philosophies and ask if it matches what the pope is working for.

[quote name='Budge' post='1016173' date='Jul 2 2006, 08:54 AM']Does this mean the pope believes that Baal can be perfected and completed?[/quote] No, the pope is not trying to perfect a faith between baal and Jesus. Please cite where he is doing this.

[quote name='Budge' post='1016173' date='Jul 2 2006, 08:54 AM']False religions in the BIble are so rejected that all the idols and pillars and more are commanded by God to be BROKEN DOWN AND DESTROYED[/quote] Which is exactly what the Catholic Church did when building up Rome, especially the Vatican. To build up the canopy in St. Peter's the Pope ordered pagan art work to be melted down. The pagan Coliseum and Circus Maximus were torn down for the same reason.

Perhaps your interpretation of our 'unity of all religions' should be understood as 'working together in charity and understanding to bring them to the fullness of faith while allowing them to keep their culture and practices as long as the practices do not conflict with Catholic teachings.'

[jswranch]

[quote name='mongladz' post='1016191' date='Jul 2 2006, 10:07 AM']
Hello cmotherofpirl,

From the time that the Hindus desecrated the Sanctuary (2004), ...[/quote]


Has this happened since then?

[Budge]

Scripture answers everything, and the play on semantics that this doesnt apply to religions is false, pagan philosophies is the same as religions.

This is exactly what Rome is doing:
[quote]
Jos 7:10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and Hebrew/Greek LexiconList Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries

Jos 7:11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: [size=6]for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, [u]and they have put [it] even among their own stuff.[/u][/size][/quote]

I do NOT celebrate Christmas or Easter.

[quote]Which is exactly what the Catholic Church did when building up Rome, especially the Vatican. To build up the canopy in St. Peter's the Pope ordered pagan art work to be melted down. The pagan Coliseum and Circus Maximus were torn down for the same reason.[/quote]

No the pillar of Caligua is still in the center of the sun wheel and Jupiter NOW called Peter is in the Vatican itself.

[img]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peter-jupiter.jpg[/img]

Wow looks like one guy knows what Im talking about at least partially.
[quote]


Saint Joseph Cafasso said that when priest mixes with the world priest is always the loser. The same is true here. Catholic churchmen emerge from these little “chats” not as conquerors but as the conquered, saying things like: “Golly… he whom we once condemned isn’t such a bad chap after all. As a matter of fact, a lot of his ideas aren’t bad either. Not only does he have a number of things in common with us, but there are even a few things we can learn from him. So why don’t we seek some reasonable middle ground where we both can peacefully co-exist… it’s a big world and we all have something good to offer. Let’s not worry about our differences. Let’s concentrate on the positive and what we have in common.”

By this application of a worldly political diplomacy (which is actually surrender) Christ’s Church ceases to be the sole God-given teacher of mankind. [/quote]

I am a ex-Unitarian Universalist, the glad-handing and world unity that Rome seeks with false religions is the EXACT same as the Unitarian Universalist Association except that Rome will say we are the ones in charge.

Read this essay, youll understand why I left the Catholic church and why I find these interfaith exursions of Rome so abominable.

[url="http://p094.ezboard.com/fcatholicreformationfrm23.showMessage?topicID=44.topic"]MY ESSAY[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016236' date='Jul 2 2006, 02:34 PM']
Scripture answers everything, and the play on semantics that this doesnt apply to religions is false, pagan philosophies is the same as religions.


[/quote]

where does scripture say it has the answer to everything?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016236' date='Jul 2 2006, 02:34 PM']Read this essay, youll understand why I left the Catholic church and why I find these interfaith exursions of Rome so abominable.[/quote]

Ok. Congratulations on your new found faith. That's why we have religious freedom. Why do you feel the need to lecture us? Nobody is interested in leaving the Catholic Church. If God wants to convert us, he'll convert us. He doesn't need your all caps tirades.

[mongladz]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016228' date='Jul 2 2006, 11:48 AM']
Has this happened since then?
[/quote]

Left uncontrolled and the perpetrators unsanctioned it will. Rector Guera still holds the position and already had an interfaith shrine being built there that is due completion by 2007. I don't believe that that interfaith shrine would be for Catholics only.

Peace!

mongladz

[mongladz]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016236' date='Jul 2 2006, 12:34 PM']
I am a ex-Unitarian Universalist, the glad-handing and world unity that Rome seeks with false religions is the EXACT same as the Unitarian Universalist Association except that Rome will say we are the ones in charge.

Read this essay, youll understand why I left the Catholic church and why I find these interfaith exursions of Rome so abominable.
[/quote]

You may be correct that the interfaith excursions of Rome is so abominable, but it is more abominable to leave her for what few of her members did. Even if the boat is tosssed so many times and this interfaith excursions as you mentioned is just a part of that wave, she will never sink becuase she alone holds the promise, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Now, when Christ washed the feet of His apostles, it somehow symbolizes that they will be walking in a bemire path. They did, but they held the more firm to what they believe in, and only an apostle of Christ will do such a thing.

Peace!

mongladz

[mongladz]

Oh yes, I forgot. Nice essay but the New World Order is a masonic goal and you did not elaborate more on that. I hope you can discover the [url="http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/masonry.htm"]"[u]alta vendita[/u]"[/url] document discovered by the Church and why these things happen.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1016236' date='Jul 2 2006, 02:34 PM']
[img]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peter-jupiter.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I don't know where you got the notion that this is a statue of Jupiter. They don't actually know what it is originally from. Could be anyone.

[dUSt]

Budge,

By making these arguments, you seek to unite us Catholics to your view--hence, are guilty of the same crime you accuse us of. Nice job making a valid point.

[mongladz]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1016254' date='Jul 2 2006, 02:39 PM']
where does scripture say it has the answer to everything?
[/quote]

The First Epistle of Budge to the Phatmassans

Peace!

mongladz

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1015959' date='Jul 1 2006, 06:55 PM']
Sam, when are you gonna stop speaking about things you know nothing about? Take a few years off and learn. It'll help.
[/quote]

this has nothing to do with ecumenicism and the unity of all relegions. It has to do with philosophies. The philosophies of pagans can contain parts of natural law. (that is why Aquinas based his teachings on Aristotle). Pagan theology is not natural law. it is evil, and their relegion as a whole leads people away from the Church. Father Ricci accepted Confucianism's moral teachings, and proclaimed him to be the Chinese Aristotle but he rejected neo-confucianism, and he incorporated Confucian rites, and moral teachings into Catholic Practice in China. Pagan philosophies and Pagan theologies are 2 totally different things.


[quote]This is the reason why the Catholic Church has neither scorned nor rejected the pagan philosophies. Instead, after freeing them from error and all contamination she has perfected and completed them by Christian revelation. So likewise the Church has graciously made her own the native art and culture which in some countries is so highly developed. She has carefully encouraged them and has brought them to a point of aesthetic perfection that of themselves they probably would never have attained. By no means has she repressed native customs and traditions but has given them a certain religious significance; she has even transformed their feast days and made them serve to commemorate the martyrs and to celebrate mysteries of the faith. In this connection, St. Basil says very well: "Just as dyers prepare the material to be dyed by certain processes beforehand and only when this has been done do they color it with purple or some other color: likewise if the unfading glory of the just is to be ours for all time we shall first be prepared by these external rites and then we shall master the teachings and mysteries of Faith. When we become accustomed to looking at the reflection of the sun in the water, we shall turn to gaze upon the sun itself. . . Certainly the essential function of a tree is to produce fruit in season; still the foliage that its branches also bear serves to adorn it. In the same way the primary fruit of the soul is truth itself; but the garb of natural culture is a welcome addition, just as leaves provide shade for the fruit and add to its beauty. Thus Moses, a man of the greatest renown for his wisdom, is said to have come to the contemplation of Him, Who is, only after being trained in Egyptian lore. So later the wise Daniel is said to have been first schooled in Babylon in the wisdom of the Chaldeans, and only then to have come to know Divine Revelation."

--Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Letter "Evangelii Praecones"

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii...aecones_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii...aecones_en.html[/url][/quote]

[jswranch]

[quote name='mongladz' post='1016281' date='Jul 2 2006, 04:02 PM']
Left uncontrolled and the perpetrators unsanctioned it will. Rector Guera still holds the position and already had an interfaith shrine being built there that is due completion by 2007. I don't believe that that interfaith shrine would be for Catholics only.

Peace!

mongladz
[/quote]

Until someone can prove that the illicit actions are continuing, I will believe they have stopped. You have not done so in your above comments.

Just because he is still there does not the same actions (Hindu worship in a Catholic Church) are tolerated. Was Fr. Guera sanctioned for his actions? I suppose the policies for him were not clear and he may have acted in ignorance. I can imagine the story hitting the news, Fr. Guera getting council from his bishop, and Fr. Guera concluding, "I suppose you are correct your Holiness, letting the pagans perform celibrations in our consecrated churches is illicit. Such actions can lead to scandal provoking some to think we have given our beliefs over to plurlism. I will stop immediately. Do you think it is ok for us to construct a non-consecrated building nearby for them?"
The idea that such actions (Hindu worship in a catholic church) is still going on and will continue in such abuse is pure speculation.


BTW, if the Hindu's want to honor mary at Fatima, as Catholics we are obliged to support them... in a way besides inside of one of our churches. The inter-faith shrine might not be for Catholics at all... ie for public worship.

[quote name='mongladz' post='1015833' date='Jul 1 2006, 02:11 PM']
Are consecrated souls not part of the Chruch? [url="http://freerepublic.info/focus/f-religion/1162953/posts"]I hope this helps[/url] or [url="http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/0704desec.asp"]this.[/url]
[/quote]
These sources have been proved errant year after year. Please prove this stuff has been going without the bishop's permission in the last 12 months. All the articles seem to be about events in the past.

[mongladz]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016613' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:27 AM']
[b]BTW, if the Hindu's want to honor mary at Fatima, as Catholics we are obliged to support them... in a way besides inside of one of our churches. The inter-faith shrine might not be for Catholics at all... ie for public worship.[/b][/quote]

No further questions your honor.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]
BTW, if the Hindu's want to honor mary at Fatima, as Catholics we are obliged to support them... in a way besides inside of one of our churches. The inter-faith shrine might not be for Catholics at all... ie for public worship.[/quote]

and why is that?

[jswranch]

[quote name='mongladz' post='1016683' date='Jul 3 2006, 10:50 AM']
No further questions your honor.
[/quote]

You rest your case? This should be easy. Perhaps we should debate why I feel this way.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1016723' date='Jul 3 2006, 12:30 PM']
and why is that?
[/quote]

Back when the Pope owned the Papal estates, he did not destroy the Jewish Synagogues. Why not? They were teaching a false gospel... ie Jesus is not the Messiah.

[quote]DIGNITATIS HUMANAE
Declaration on Religious Freedom
...
The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

6. Since the common welfare of society consists in the entirety of those conditions of social life under which men enjoy the possibility of achieving their own perfection in a certain fullness of measure and also with some relative ease, it chiefly consists in the protection of the rights, and in the performance of the duties, of the human person.(4) Therefore the care of the right to religious freedom devolves upon the whole citizenry, upon social groups, upon government, and upon the Church and other religious communities, in virtue of the duty of all toward the common welfare, and in the manner proper to each.
...
The council exhorts Catholics, and it directs a plea to all men, most carefully to consider how greatly necessary religious freedom is, especially in the present condition of the human family. All nations are coming into even closer unity. Men of different cultures and religions are being brought together in closer relationships. There is a growing consciousness of the personal responsibility that every man has.[/quote]

Edited July 3, 2006 by jswranch