Phatmass FOR UNITY OF ALL RELIGIONS?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017033' date='Jul 4 2006, 08:54 AM']
What is disturbing is that you think it is a laughing matter. No Catholic state today would execute heretics though you have made explicit that you would desire them to. Execution of heretics was a contingent, historical response and a notable abberration from the teachings of the early church. I am sorry that phatmass allows people like you to spew their hate and ignorance.

There is very little difference from the fundamentalism practiced by people like "Budge" and yourself.
[/quote]


i guess all the popes and saints (including the angelic doctor) are fanatics and fundementalists? do you not care any for the souls being led astray by heretics?

[ReinnieR]

John 11:52???

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017058' date='Jul 4 2006, 07:02 AM']
i guess all the popes and saints (including the angelic doctor) are fanatics and fundementalists? do you not care any for the souls being led astray by heretics?
[/quote]

"To consign a heretic to death is to commit an [b]offence beyond atonement[/b]" -- St. John Chrysostom

"We wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of ecclesiastical discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve." -- St. Augustine

"For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, [b]but do not put them to death[/b]" -- Peter Canter

Your ahistoricity cannot account for the contingencies of ecclesiastical discipline and therefore you make fundamentalists out of the popes and saints -- a huge disservice to their memory.

The early church consistently taught that heresy was a matter of free will, therefore your utilitarian rhetoric is misplaced in this discussion (as all utilitarianism is).

[phatcatholic]

a note to all: pray before you post.

[jswranch]

[quote name='phatcatholic' post='1017208' date='Jul 4 2006, 03:51 PM']
a note to all: pray before you post.
[/quote]
WILCO

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017150' date='Jul 4 2006, 01:37 PM']
"To consign a heretic to death is to commit an [b]offence beyond atonement[/b]" -- St. John Chrysostom

"We wish them corrected, not put to death; we desire the triumph of ecclesiastical discipline, not the death penalties that they deserve." -- St. Augustine

"For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, [b]but do not put them to death[/b]" -- Peter Canter

Your ahistoricity cannot account for the contingencies of ecclesiastical discipline and therefore you make fundamentalists out of the popes and saints -- a huge disservice to their memory.

The early church consistently taught that heresy was a matter of free will, therefore your utilitarian rhetoric is misplaced in this discussion (as all utilitarianism is).
[/quote]


I think that is all good and well. I never said the church always practiced the killing of heretics, but She did during the middle ages, and i see nothing wrong with it if there are souls in danger. killing heretics is not optimal, in fact i would love to see them converted to the faith. In fact, i would not support the killing of heretics unless it was [b]absolutely nessecary[/b]. But to say that it is an offense to kill a heretic who endangers the souls of a large group of people is wrong.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017282' date='Jul 4 2006, 07:23 PM']
I think that is all good and well. I never said the church always practiced the killing of heretics, but She did during the middle ages, and i see nothing wrong with it if there are souls in danger. killing heretics is not optimal, in fact i would love to see them converted to the faith. In fact, i would not support the killing of heretics unless it was [b]absolutely nessecary[/b]. But to say that it is an offense to kill a heretic who endangers the souls of a large group of people is wrong.
[/quote]

That has not been your position, but you are welcome to change it. Your "if...then" statements logically entail a contradiction and lead to a most crass form of utilitarianism.

And if you have a problem with the offense of executing heretics as a normative condition than you can work that out on your own with St. John Chrysostom and the rest of the early church.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

quoting 3 or 4 saints does not demonstrate what the early church believed. Even if it did, you are putting the teachings of the early church over those of the medieval Church.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1017463' date='Jul 5 2006, 09:40 AM']
Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.
[/quote]
we sorry

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017368' date='Jul 5 2006, 04:04 AM']
quoting 3 or 4 saints does not demonstrate what the early church believed. Even if it did, you are putting the teachings of the early church over those of the medieval Church.
[/quote]

And you would be putting the teachings of the medieval Church over the whole (early, post-medieval etc.)

Of course, to even think of the issue in these terms betrays a weak understanding of church history.

[quote]Please remind us what the point of this thread is? It seems to be devolving into squabbling, and even a few scandalous comments. If the trend continues the thread will be shut down.[/quote]

The entire thread started with squabbling...

[Budge]

I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo.

Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you.

John 17:6 (KJV)

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 11:51 AM']
I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo.

Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you.

John 17:6 (KJV)

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
[/quote]
While I don't agree with the King James Version, I must agree with the sentiment of the Scripture. Isn't it wonderful how good Catholic saints like John record the words of Christ so beautifully?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Budge,
[quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 11:51 AM']
Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you.
[/quote]
Catholicism is nowhere near Universalism. The Church claims to teach nothing but the Truth. Our current Pope was elected days after railing against a "dictatorship of relativism" and was soon criticized by a Fox News analyst for promoting a "dictatorship of certitude". Only in an alternate universe does a "universalist" Catholic Church exist.
The Church's teachings are irreconcilable with the other religions you are trying to say the Church is uniting into a world-religion - a concept that contradicts logic and what can be clearly observed.

[u][b]This is not universalist:[/b][/u]
[quote][b]NOSTRA AETATE - THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS[/b]
Indeed, [the Church] proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.[/quote]
[quote][b]UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO - DECREE ON ECUMENISM[/b]
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature...
For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation.[/quote]
Talking to other religions and recognizing when they get something right (Judaism and Islam are monotheist, ect.) is not universalism, it is recognizing the truth. When a Muslim says there is one God, do we say he is wrong?
[quote]Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law. To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some. All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
[i]1 Corinthians 9:19-23[/i][/quote]
God bless!

Edited July 5, 2006 by thedude

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1017502' date='Jul 5 2006, 08:51 AM']
I think my thread got hijacked between a Trad and a Novus Ordo.

Im going to stick with what Jesus Christ teaches about salvation and leave the universalism to the rest of you.

John 17:6 (KJV)

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
[/quote]


You seem to hijack your own threads with poor arguments and bad rhetoric.

What of the Magi? Why were they led to worship the baby Jesus by following the star and their religion (i.e. astrology)?

I am sorry you haven't given your position much thought.

[MC Just]

Phatmass is not for Unity of all Religions, because such and idea is demonic.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1017653' date='Jul 5 2006, 03:25 PM']
You seem to hijack your own threads with poor arguments and bad rhetoric.

What of the Magi? Why were they led to worship the baby Jesus by following the star and their religion (i.e. astrology)?

I am sorry you haven't given your position much thought.
[/quote]


is astrology considered a relegion?


God gives every person the grace nessecary for salvation, it is up to them wether or not they accept this grace, and what they do with it. but i don't think astrology leads to christ.

[rkwright]

blah I can't believe I just spent 20 mins reading this thread to be 'caught up'.

I thought these sorts of threads were going to be gone after the re-phourmation??

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017806' date='Jul 5 2006, 04:24 PM']
is astrology considered a relegion?
[/quote]

I didn't say astrology was a religion (though it very well could be argued so), but rather meant that astrology was part of their religion.

[quote]God gives every person the grace nessecary for salvation, it is up to them wether or not they accept this grace, and what they do with it. but i don't think astrology leads to christ.[/quote]

I am simply describing an event in the Bible.

[jswranch]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 3 2006, 10:52 PM']
I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.[/quote]
Terribly sorry, but I am having trouble finding your questions.