Phatmass FOR UNITY OF ALL RELIGIONS?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016752' date='Jul 3 2006, 03:41 PM']
You rest your case? This should be easy. Perhaps we should debate why I feel this way.
Back when the Pope owned the Papal estates, he did not destroy the Jewish Synagogues. Why not? They were teaching a false gospel... ie Jesus is not the Messiah.
[/quote]

no but, he also did not let them have christian servants, he made them wear special dress so they could be identified, and he made them listen to sermons 4 times a years aimed at their conversion. this was also a special case. Protestantism was never allowed to be practiced in the Papal states, only Catholicism, with the exception of Judiasm.

You are indeed wrong. We catholics must not encourage, or harbor infdedils and allow them to pratice a false relegion. it is scandalous in its very nature, and has been condemned countless times by previous popes. Don't quote Vatican II, it is a complete break from the Traditional teachings of the Church.

[jswranch]

If you want to understand one of the ways the Catholic Church views other religions, view [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2non.htm"]NOSTRA AETATE- Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions[/url]


On the Hindus:
[quote]Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. [/quote]

Remember that the church reminds us not to compromise our faith/change it in living with non-christians and are required to work/pray for their conversion.

Edited July 3, 2006 by jswranch

[mongladz]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016752' date='Jul 3 2006, 01:41 PM']
You rest your case? This should be easy. Perhaps we should debate why I feel this way.
[/quote]

It was intended to make a conclusive evidence out of your statement, haven't you noticed? Anyway, what are your sentiments?

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016782' date='Jul 3 2006, 03:02 PM']
If you want to understand one of the ways the Catholic Church views other religions, view [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/v2non.htm"]NOSTRA AETATE- Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions[/url]
On the Hindus:
Remember that the church reminds us not to compromise our faith/change it in living with non-christians and are required to work/pray for their conversion.
[/quote]

The Spirit of Vatican II nice. Errrr.... Why do we need protestants in that council?

Edited July 3, 2006 by mongladz

[jswranch]

[quote name='mongladz' post='1016804' date='Jul 3 2006, 03:53 PM']
The Spirit of Vatican II nice. Errrr.... Why do we need protestants in that council?
[/quote]
Why not? They have been invited to all the other Councils (Trent, VI).


No, not 'spirit of Vatican II,' documents of Vatican II. Just like the documents of Nicea, Constantinople I, Ephesus.... etc. (Yes, I know there are no canons.) I am yet to find anyone who can show me an error in any document by citation. Start a new thread or [s]your own forum[/s].


BTW, have you read NOSTRA AETATE?

Edited July 4, 2006 by jswranch

[jswranch]

[img]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/peter-jupiter.jpg[/img]

Jupiter blessing the world with the sign of the cross, holding the keys to the kingdom of heaven (the keys of the teeth in the shape of the cross), wearing a christian halo!? What does a statue of Jupiter really look like?

[Budge]

[quote]I don't know where you got the notion that this is a statue of Jupiter. They don't actually know what it is originally from. Could be anyone.[/quote]

From Innocents Abroad--Mark Twain.

m.
[quote]
The guide showed us a colossal statue of Jupiter, in the Vatican, which he said looked so damaged [b]and rusty--so like the God of the Vagabonds--because it had but recently been dug up in the Campagna[/b]. He asked how much we supposed this Jupiter was worth? I replied, with intelligent promptness, that he was probably worth about four dollars--may be four and a half. "A hundred thousand dollars!" Ferguson said. Ferguson said, further, that the Pope permits no ancient work of this kind to leave his dominions. He appoints a commission to examine discoveries like this and report upon the value; then the Pope pays the discoverer one-half of that assessed value and takes the statue. He said this Jupiter was dug from a field which had just been bought for thirty-six thousand dollars, so the first crop was a good one for the new farmer. I do not know whether Ferguson always tells the truth or not, but I suppose he does. I know that an exorbitant export duty is [/quote]
[quote]
The Jupiter Veraspi, a Roman copy of a Greek original, now in the Vatican.[/quote]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Why does having an old piece of art mean that the Vatican practices paganism? Show us a Church statement embracing pagan belief.

[Justified Saint]

Is someone trying to use Mark Twain as an authority on art history?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1016767' date='Jul 3 2006, 01:31 PM']
no but, he also did not let them have christian servants, he made them wear special dress so they could be identified, and he made them listen to sermons 4 times a years aimed at their conversion. this was also a special case. Protestantism was never allowed to be practiced in the Papal states, only Catholicism, with the exception of Judiasm.

You are indeed wrong. We catholics must not encourage, or harbor infdedils and allow them to pratice a false relegion. it is scandalous in its very nature, and has been condemned countless times by previous popes. Don't quote Vatican II, it is a complete break from the Traditional teachings of the Church.
[/quote]

Long live the Inqusition?!?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yes.
[quote]
[b]Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?

Objection 1. It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated. For the Apostle says (2 Timothy 2:24-25): "The servant of the Lord must not wrangle . . . with modesty admonishing them that resist the truth, if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil." Now if heretics are not tolerated but put to death, they lose the opportunity of repentance. Therefore it seems contrary to the Apostle's command.

Objection 2. Further, whatever is necessary in the Church should be tolerated. Now heresies are necessary in the Church, since the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 11:19): "There must be . . . heresies, that they . . . who are reproved, may be manifest among you." Therefore it seems that heretics should be tolerated.

Objection 3. Further, the Master commanded his servants (Matthew 13:30) to suffer the cockle "to grow until the harvest," i.e. the end of the world, as a gloss explains it. Now holy men explain that the cockle denotes heretics. Therefore heretics should be tolerated.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10-11): "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted."

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. [size=6]For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.[/size]

[size=6]On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.[/size] For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."

Reply to Objection 1. This very modesty demands that the heretic should be admonished a first and second time: and if he be unwilling to retract, he must be reckoned as already "subverted," as we may gather from the words of the Apostle quoted above.

Reply to Objection 2. The profit that ensues from heresy is beside the intention of heretics, for it consists in the constancy of the faithful being put to the test, and "makes us shake off our sluggishness, and search the Scriptures more carefully," as Augustine states (De Gen. cont. Manich. i, 1). What they really intend is the corruption of the faith, which is to inflict very great harm indeed. Consequently we should consider what they directly intend, and expel them, rather than what is beside their intention, and so, tolerate them.

Reply to Objection 3. According to Decret. (xxiv, qu. iii, can. Notandum), "to be excommunicated is not to be uprooted." A man is excommunicated, as the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 5:5) that his "spirit may be saved in the day of Our Lord." Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord's command, which is to be understood as referring to the case when the cockle cannot be plucked up without plucking up the wheat, as we explained above (10, 8, ad 1), when treating of unbelievers in general.[/b][/quote]

[jswranch]

Budge, please tell me you do not think this statue is the same one Twain was refering and that Twain was correct. If your proof of history and art is this bad, I fear you might fall for the LDS.

Really now, I would have expected a Fundi to have posted a statue (not drawing) of Jupiter next to the statue of St. Peter and say, "See they are the same." It would not matter anyways.


So, let me post some examples of Jupiter statues. I am not certain these were carved before modern times.

[img]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/jupiter_bronze.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/jupiter.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/jupiter_giant_s.JPG[/img]


Sorry, I just don't see the undeniable resemblence. Perhaps an art history major can tell us who actually made the St. Peter statue in question.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1016888' date='Jul 3 2006, 06:53 PM']
yes.
[/quote]
So do you think the pope should require all Jews who visit the vatican to wear a yellow star of David?

[Justified Saint]

And for the unconverted do you prefer forced conversion or expulsion?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016892' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:15 PM']
Budge, please tell me you do not think this statue is the same one Twain was refering and that Twain was correct. If your proof of history and art is this bad, I fear you might fall for the LDS.

Really now, I would have expected a Fundi to have posted a statue (not drawing) of Jupiter next to the statue of St. Peter and say, "See they are the same." It would not matter anyways.
So, let me post some examples of Jupiter statues. I am not certain these were carved before modern times.

[img]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/jupiter_bronze.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/jupiter.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/jupiter_giant_s.JPG[/img]
Sorry, I just don't see the undeniable resemblence. Perhaps an art history major can tell us who actually made the St. Peter statue in question.
So do you think the pope should require all Jews who visit the vatican to wear a yellow star of David?
[/quote]


[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016895' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:19 PM']
And for the unconverted do you prefer forced conversion or expulsion?
[/quote]



I'm not the Pope, and certain popes relaxed these rules.



to Justified Saint: I do not believe in Forced Conversion and neither does the church. i would have no problem with explusion [b]if it was nessecary.[/b]

i see no one arguing with church teaching. I am the only one who has cited anything. you people just sling mud, and pretend it has some effect on the argument, or that it is a good comeback.

[jswranch]

Sam,
So do you think the pope should require all Jews who visit the vatican to wear a yellow star of David? If not, what designation do you think they should have?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016927' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:58 PM']
Sam,
So do you think the pope should require all Jews who visit the vatican to wear a yellow star of David? If not, what designation do you think they should have?
[/quote]


i would not advocate for clothing laws, nor would i condemn them. WHAT I THINK about what clothes the jews hould wear when entering the vatican is, not relevant. what is important is that they existed in the past.

[Justified Saint]

I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Guest Rick777]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 3 2006, 09:52 PM']
I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.
[/quote]

I think this post sounds hateful....

[jswranch]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1016932' date='Jul 3 2006, 08:11 PM']
i would not advocate for clothing laws, nor would i condemn them. WHAT I THINK about what clothes the jews hould wear when entering the vatican is, not relevant. what is important is that they existed in the past.[/quote] So if they are not important, then why do you bring it up?

Yes it is relevant. Earlier you said:
[quote]no but, he also did not let [Jews] have christian servants, he made them wear special dress so they could be identified, and he made them listen to sermons 4 times a years aimed at their conversion. this was also a special case. Protestantism was never allowed to be practiced in the Papal states, only Catholicism, with the exception of Judiasm.

You are indeed wrong. We catholics must not encourage, or harbor infdedils and allow them to pratice a false relegion. it is scandalous in its very nature, and has been condemned countless times by previous popes. Don't quote Vatican II, it is a complete break from the Traditional teachings of the Church.[/quote]

Apparently the pope back then thought it was important to make Jews dress differently, which you admit is not something you would be sad to see happen today. However, is not your indefference to whether or not the Pope decides such actions a break from tradition? If your strong, dogmatic desire is to keep with tradition, are you not required to demand that BXI makes non-Catholics wear designating clothing?


So you believe that the Pope should not have harbored the Jews from the Nazis?

Edited July 4, 2006 by jswranch

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1016976' date='Jul 4 2006, 12:52 AM']
I asked two simple questions, no mud slinging here.

But in any case you are hateful person and should be banned for adovcating murder. This thread is an embarrassment to anyone calling themselves Christian or having the slightest scruples.

You make a critical mistake; that something once existed does not mean, and quite obviously does not mean, that it is still so or should be so. You have cited nothing but contingent theological opinions and historical examples while scorning the ones you don't agree with; I was unaware that execution and expulsion were standing church teachings -- and of course being under the exclusive control of the secular arm they are not. I believe your understanding of history is not far from the one spoken of in my signature.
[/quote]


you are funny. i never adovcated murder. I see no Catholic state willing to execute heretics do you? you are the one who truly is advocating murder, the murder of the soul. what is more important, the murder of a person, or the murder of an eternal soul? Heretics murder people's souls, be leading them to hell. it is the Church's responsibility to make sure this does not happen. This is what the Church has always taught, im sorry if you don't like it.

[quote name='jswranch' post='1016987' date='Jul 4 2006, 01:30 AM']
So if they are not important, then why do you bring it up?

Yes it is relevant. Earlier you said:


Apparently the pope back then thought it was important to make Jews dress differently, which you admit is not something you would be sad to see happen today. However, is not your indefference to whether or not the Pope decides such actions a break from tradition? If your strong, dogmatic desire is to keep with tradition, are you not required to demand that BXI makes non-Catholics wear designating clothing?
So you believe that the Pope should not have harbored the Jews from the Nazis?
[/quote]


No it is not a break from Tradition. Some popes made jews dress differently, some did not. Once again NOT ALL POPES MADE JEWS WERE DIFFERENT CLOTHING!

ARE YOU CRAZY! Pope Pius XII is a venerable servant of God, and was a holy Traditional Pope. His actions during the holocaust are laudable. The Jews have always recieved special protection from the church. what the Nazis did was horrible, and Pius XII was a hero.

[quote]"As Cain was a wanderer and an outcast, not to be killed by anyone but marked with the sign of fear on his forehead, so the Jews . . . against whom the voice of the blood of Christ cries out . . . although they are not to be killed they must always be dispersed as wanderers upon the face of the earth."[/quote]
-Pope Innocent III

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1017022' date='Jul 4 2006, 05:27 AM']
you are funny. i never adovcated murder. I see no Catholic state willing to execute heretics do you? you are the one who truly is advocating murder, the murder of the soul. what is more important, the murder of a person, or the murder of an eternal soul? Heretics murder people's souls, be leading them to hell. it is the Church's responsibility to make sure this does not happen. This is what the Church has always taught, im sorry if you don't like it.
[/quote]

What is disturbing is that you think it is a laughing matter. No Catholic state today would execute heretics though you have made explicit that you would desire them to. Execution of heretics was a contingent, historical response and a notable abberration from the teachings of the early church. I am sorry that phatmass allows people like you to spew their hate and ignorance.

There is very little difference from the fundamentalism practiced by people like "Budge" and yourself.