African Bishops Tell Priests: STOP BEING WITCHDOCTORS!

[Budge]

Just as I suspected...

[quote]Southern African bishops have told priests they can no longer act as traditional African healers.

[size=5] Priests must "desist from 'ubuNgoma' (traditional healing) practices involving spirits and channel their ministries of healing through the sacraments and sacramentals of the church," said the bishops of the Southern African Catholic Bishops' Conference, which represents South Africa, Botswana and Swaziland.[/size]

In an Aug. 11 pastoral letter, the bishops expressed concern that [size=5]"many African Christians {CATHOLICS}, during difficult moments in their lives, resort to practices of the traditional religion: the intervention of ancestral spirits, the engagement of spirit-mediums, spirit-possession, consulting diviners about lost items and about the future, magical practices and identifying one's enemies."
[/size]
Fear of the spirit world is intensified "instead of the love of the ever merciful God definitively revealed by Christ through his death and resurrection," they said. "More disturbing" is that some priests, religious and lay Catholics have "resorted to becoming diviner-healers" and "call on the ancestors for healing."
[/quote]
snip

[quote] Priests must act in the person of Christ, not ancestors, and thus should not be diviners. Priests "receive authority and power from the church and not from undergoing a ritual to become a diviner-healer. The claim to a double source of power and authority confuses Christians and undermines the image of the priest because the one contradicts the other," the bishops said.

"By virtue of the sacrament of orders," priests "are consecrated to preach the Gospel, to shepherd the faithful and to celebrate divine worship as true priests of the New Testament," they said.
[/quote]
snip
[quote]
"In practice, among Christians {CATHOLICS} who also embrace traditional beliefs,[size=5] there is no doubt that ancestral spirits enjoy more recognition than Jesus Christ," the bishops said,[/size] noting that "in local cultures superstition abounds."

Noting that indigenous religious belief attributes the power of healing to ancestral spirits, the bishops said that the sacrament of the sick "pales into insignificance in the eyes of the afflicted because faith in Jesus Christ does not play any role (in indigenous belief); rather it is the belief in the good disposition of the ancestors."
[/quote]


www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=20911

This is what happens when you have a church that teaches the pagan is to be christianized. A bunch of "pagan" pseudo- christians.

[img]http://www.religion-cults.com/pope/pope-african26.jpg[/img]

[chris]

Budge, not all Catholics do that. Priest dabiling in this stuff has been going on for awhile now and you really only know the half of it. The good part you pointed out is that they were demaned to stop.

So what are you worried about? Honestly?

[desertwoman]

If you listen to alot of radio stations down here in the South, you will hear the same thing going on in Protestant circles as well such as "Get evil out of your house. CALL Dr. So and So now!

It is a cultural thing in the AFrican and African American Communites. In many Protestant denominations, the traditions of my ancestors have been transferred to Christianity. Many of African traditions have been passed on to Islam as well in AFrica, female gential mutliation to be one predominant example.

It is a cultural thing that is hard to get rid of for it will continue to be believed. WE have people here in rurual communites who can talk the fire out of you. This means that if someone is burned, they will have someone come by, say something over you, and your burn will stop hurting.

So, it is not a Catholic thing, but a cultural thing. African traditions, Irish traditions, English traditions, American traditions will influtrate Chrisitianity in every denomination.

[desertwoman]

sorry, twice.

Edited August 17, 2006 by desertwoman

[Lahecil]

Desertwoman is right, 100%. People have combined Christianity and old pagan religions for a VERY long time, and it will probably never stop. Especially since the holidays are all on the same days, and have the same basis, right down to Groundhog day.

[Justified Saint]

Budge, why would the bishops condemn this practice of syncretism? I thought that is exactly what the pope and Church wanted -- "one world religion" (or whatever you call it)?

Interestingly, I saw this article last night on James White's site and I thought to myself "It won't take long for Budge to be on top of this one" and surely it didn't fail! When you specialize in throwing dirt on other people's religion I guess it isn't hard to stay abreast on all these things.

What was interesting was that the article linked by White was a little different (Reuters) which mentioned the ZCC (Zion Christian Church) church, the largest independent church in Africa which is based on a fusion of Protestantism and traditional African beliefs. Funny how White didn't mention anything about that!

[Mateo el Feo]

It's a little known fact that pagans use [size=6]extremely large fonts [/size] to call up evil spirits. I heard that Billy Graham was having an anti-large font rally this week.

Just wanted everyone to know that we Christians shouldn't allow for this pagan practice among ourselves.

[LouisvilleFan]

What doesn't make the headlines is common practice of American Christians (myself included) selling out to our own gods: security, wealth, possessions. We aren't any better, just better deluded (and diluted). After we look at the stake in our own eye, it's completely understandable why the Church in Africa is struggling with this issue.

[Lahecil]

[quote]It's a little known fact that pagans use extremely large fonts to call up evil spirits. I heard that Billy Graham was having an anti-large font rally this week.

Just wanted everyone to know that we Christians shouldn't allow for this pagan practice among ourselves.[/quote]
I didn't know y'all were on to us there! [size=5]We're coming for you large font-users.[/size]

Edited August 17, 2006 by Lahecil

[Eutychus]

[quote] Interestingly, I saw this article last night on James White's site and I thought to myself "It won't take long for Budge to be on top of this one" and surely it didn't fail! When you specialize in throwing dirt on other people's religion I guess it isn't hard to stay abreast on all these things.[/quote]

[size=1]Good grief.

And the pope knows and does nothing at all about this? I thought that was the STRENGHTH of your church, the top down structure that could STOP such nonsense?[/size]

Edited August 17, 2006 by Eutychus

[Budge]

Here come the Font-police. Notice they always come out when theres a topic they cant handle.

[b]The Pope wont lift a finger...

AFTER ALL THIS IS POLICY....[/b]

[just the Catholic here are too much in denial to realize]

[quote] Code: ZE05012505

Date: 2005-01-25

Message of Vatican Colloquium on Traditional Religions

"Greater Effort in Promoting Interreligious Dialogue"

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 25, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Here is the final message of the colloquium on "The Resources for Peace in Traditional Religions," organized by the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, and held Jan. 12-15.

* * *

Peace is a constant quest of all men and women of good will. Following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, the Church, in full awareness of the need for peace in a divided world, encourages dialogue in view of better understanding and harmonious relations between believers of different religions. [size=5]Between January 12th-15th, 2005, in Rome, the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue organized a colloquium on "The Resources for Peace in Traditional Religions."[/size]

In this colloquium, 24 Catholic experts from Africa, the Americas, Asia, and Oceania came together to reflect on what traditional religions can contribute to peace-making in the world. This encounter as well as the previous colloquium on "Spiritual Resources of the Religions on Peace" organized by the same office between 16th-8th January 2003 in Rome, were a follow-up to the Interreligious Assembly held in the Vatican on 25th-28th October 1999; the Day of Prayer for Peace, which took place in Assisi, 24th January 2002; and the Forum for Peace which preceded it.

The participants underlined the specific characteristics of traditional religions. They noted the importance of the following elements: oral traditions, rituals, myths and proverbs, as well as a community-centered vision of life, the sacredness of nature, the unified view of reality, the emphasis on life and relationships, all of which require special attention.

The participants generally agreed that according to traditional religions, peace is more than absence of war or open conflict. Positively, peace is viewed in terms of harmony with all facets of reality, the seen and the unseen, the divine and the human, the cosmic and the historical. Peace also presupposes balance and respect for diversity. Peace in traditional religions is fostered by a communitarian as opposed to an individualistic way of life, [a] relationship with the land and sea which inculcates a sense of responsibility and stewardship with respect to nature in general. Traditional societies emphasize social obligations. Other positive elements towards peace are the readiness for reconciliation in spite of clear perception of the inevitability of conflict; the pivotal role of women as agents of peace; the importance of the family, the elders and the community; and the necessity of restorative justice, as well as forgiveness.

While recognizing the strength of traditional religions, the participants also shared reflections on the difficulties of these religions to uphold their values in the context of globalization.

In view of the above, [size=5]the colloquium encourages greater effort in promoting interreligious dialogue between Christianity and traditional religions, especially in the local churches where these religions still exist and are influential. [/size]The participants insisted on the need for the development of intra-religious dialogue among members of the Church coming from traditional religious backgrounds. Through these two types of dialogue the participants believe that both Christians and the followers of traditional religions will come to a better understanding of the richness of traditional religions, but also of their possible limitations. A well-grounded understanding of these traditions will contribute to the process of inculturation.[u][size=5] The Church recognizes that the values in traditional religions can be wealthy resources for promoting peace in the world.[/size][/u] It is the view of this colloquium that if we took these resources more seriously, there would be more possibility of achieving genuine peace.

email this article

[/quote]

If the Vatican is this confused, why wouldnt the priests be?
[quote]
[b]Pope John Paul II on his 10th African tour in 2/93, told about 75 "colorfully garbed voodoo worshippers [in Benin] that they would NOT have to forsake all of their culture [nor their voodoo faith] in order to convert" to Catholicism (2/13/93, World). [u]The conciliatory pope noted that even as Africans look to their ancestors as objects of worship, Catholics also revere "ancestors in the faith, from the Apostles to the missionaries." [/u][/b]"[/quote]
[quote]
Pope John Paul II has urged all Christians to treat followers of African Traditional Religion with respect.[b] In his own words, “The adherents of African traditional Religion should…be treated with great respect and esteem, and all inaccurate and disrespectful language should be avoided.”[24] He has matched his words with action by demonstrating that he regards followers of African Traditional Religion as true dialogue partners.[/b][/quote]

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/001_JPIIAnimist.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.afrikaworld.net/afrel/dialogue-with-atr.htm"]LINK[/url]

[Resurrexi]

Budge, get this through your head POPES AREN'T IMPECCABLE! THEY MAKE MISTAKES AND SIN LIKE ALL OF US! THEY ARE INFALLABLE, THOUGH.

[Dave]

Budge, we have corrected you again and again on these things, and yet all you do is stick your fingers in your ears and sing, "Lalalalalalalalalalalalala . . . "

True religious dialogue is NOT to get to the least common denominator. If you want to convert someone, it has to start with dialogue. Both parties have to be willing to come to the table and explain their differences and understand the other side better. But the Catholic side also has to be sure to explain why the Church's teachings are correct; it's not a "you believe this, and I believe that, so let's agree to disagree" sort of thing.

As for being respectful of others, including those who follow other religions, why shouldn't we be respectful? Didn't you ever hear that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? NO ONE gets converted by rudeness and disrespect. That wouldn't attract ANYONE to Christianity. I've heard that the greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then afterward deny Him by their lifestyle. And being rude has no place in a Christian lifestyle.

As for voodoo practitioners allegedly not having to give up customs, there's actually a lot of difference between worshiping ancestors and venerating saints. We Catholics don't worship anyone but God. But we also honor those who have lived the lives of heroic Christian virtue that Christ calls us all to live -- they're examples for us. In the same way, the pope is surely NOT telling the voodoo practitioners to keep on worshiping their ancestors. Rather, he's telling them it's ok to honor them just so long as they keep their ancestors in the proper place, that is, not replacing God with them. Contrary to what many non-Catholics may think, Catholics don't replace God with the saints either.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Dave

[Justified Saint]

Hate preachers can't stand peace and respect -- it is distasteful to them. Because of their lack of intellectual variety, they can't tell the difference between WORLDLY peace and the peace that comes only from God the Father. We are to believe from such people that promoting peace in this world is a evil and ignoble thing.

And Euty -- you should read the article before asking silly questions.

[Eutychus]

[quote]True religious dialogue is NOT to get to the least common denominator. [u]If you want to convert someone, it has to start with dialogue. [/u]Both parties have to be willing to come to the table and[b] [u]explain their differences and understand the other side better.[/u][/b] [/quote]

Why of COURSE that is the best way.....everyone knows that.

But someone forgot to tell, Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Jude.

Those SILLY MEN, never once scheduled a pow-wow with the pagans listened to what THEY thought about Diana, Zeus, Ascepelos, Mercury and Mars... then sat down and exchanged pleasantries and gave each other mutual respect, invinting them to come and PRAY with them in their meetings, validating THEIR RELIGION as a valid path to salvation, although not with the "fullness of faith" that they had in Christ.

You have to wonder just HOW they managed to convert 10% of the world by 150AD without the confabs with the heathens...maybe they missed out and the new Popes can correct them when they [u]yell UP[/u] to them in heaven.

Sigh...

[i]{ you folks FLUNK Christianity 101, do you know that? }
[/i]

Edited August 17, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045417' date='Aug 17 2006, 01:02 PM']
Why of COURSE that is the best way.....everyone knows that.

But someone forgot to tell, Peter, Paul, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke and Jude.

Those SILLY MEN, never once scheduled a pow-wow with the pagans listened to what THEY thought about Diana, Zeus, Ascepelos, Mercury and Mars... then sat down and exchanged pleasantries and gave each other mutual respect, invinting them to come and PRAY with them in their meetings, validating THEIR RELIGION as a valid path to salvation, although not with the "fullness of faith" that they had in Christ.

You have to wonder just HOW they managed to convert 10% of the world by 150AD without the confabs with the heathens...maybe they missed out and the new Popes can correct them when they [u]yell UP[/u] to them in heaven.

[i]{ you folks FLUNK Christianity 101, do you know that? }[/i][/quote]I must have flunked Christianity 101, because this post leaves me asking the following:
1) Wouldn't it be more appropriate to credit the mentioned apostles with the spread of Christianity that occured [i]during [/i] their lifetime, instead of years after their death?
2) Is there a citation that will support your claim that 10% of the world population was already professing Christianity in 150 AD? Considering that the Edict of Milan didn't come out until 313 AD, I find it hard to believe that someone would claim such a high number of Christians lived in 150 AD. At that time, the early Christian Church suffered many persecutions as a minority religion in the ancient Roman Empire.

[LouisvilleFan]

What doesn't make the headlines is common practice of American Christians (myself included) selling out to our own gods: security, wealth, possessions. We aren't any better, just better deluded (and diluted). After we look at the stake in our own eye, it's more understandable how the Church in Africa can struggle with their issues.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]We Catholics don't worship anyone but God.[/quote]

Yes we do. I worship God, The Blessed Virgin, the Saints, the Pope, my Bishop, my parents, my relatives, my friends, my favourite singers, etc.

Worship simply means to hold in high esteem, to honour, or to like very much.

We adore God with latria, the highest form of worship, which is the type of worship given to God alone.

We worship the Blessed Virgin Mary with hyper-dulia, inifnately lesser than the worship given to God but greater than the worship given to all the saints.

We worship the Saints with dulia, worship very much lesser than that given to the Blessed Virgin, but much greater than the worship given to any living human.

We worship the Pope with worship greatly inferior than I would give to even a beatified person, but greater than any other living human.

I worship my Bishop and my parents less than the Pope but more than anyone else except the Pope.

I worship my relative, friends and favourate singers less than my paretns.

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1045422' date='Aug 17 2006, 10:22 AM']
I must have flunked Christianity 101, because this post leaves me asking the following:
1) Wouldn't it be more appropriate to credit the mentioned apostles with the spread of Christianity that occured [i]during [/i] their lifetime, instead of years after their death?
2) [u]Is there a citation that will support your claim that 10% of the world population was already professing Christianity in 150 AD? Considering that the Edict of Milan didn't come out until 313 AD, I find it hard to believe that someone would claim such a high number of Christians lived in 150 AD. At that time, the early Christian Church suffered many persecutions as a minority religion in the ancient Roman Empire.[/u]
[/quote]

[img]http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0300036426.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg[/img]

[Budge]

[quote]
Those SILLY MEN, never once scheduled a pow-wow with the pagans listened to what THEY thought about Diana, Zeus, Ascepelos, Mercury and Mars... then sat down and exchanged pleasantries and gave each other mutual respect, invinting them to come and PRAY with them in their meetings, validating THEIR RELIGION as a valid path to salvation, although not with the "fullness of faith" that they had in Christ.[/quote]

Amen Euch.

What does the Pope and his men expect when they teach that traditional religions are a source of peace [said right in the above]?

This is more of Rome's universalism, their core belief that all religions are a pathway to God, even if some pathways arent as good as the Catholic Church.

This interreligious dialogue stuff is nonsense, even the pagans with half a notion of common sense will realize that the Catholic's message of "lets rap about Buddha and the river gods" is one of confusion.