Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 [quote]You haven't been able to substantiate that. You can cut and paste all the news clips you want -- the church is made up of sinners who are disobedient. Some violations unfortunately take too much time to be corrected, but again if the pope and the Catholic Church were espousing a "one world religion" then a group of African bishops would not be condemning the practices of these renegade priests. Thus your position is innately contradictory and that is really the crux of the matter now matter how you want to spin in. Furthermore, to expect the Holy Father to make a comment on every abuse is simply ridiculous. It would be like expecting the President of the United States to have a press release every time a citizen of the U.S. broke the law.[/quote] You have Cardinal McCarrick praying to Allah. You have Pope's teaching "The Seeds of the Word are in pagan religions" You have Catholic-hybrid religions around the Globe--Voodoo, Columbre, Santeria, Mexican Catholics celebrating the Day of the Dead... You have a Cardinal giving homage to Ganesha with incense. You have a Pope who gathers every pagan religion he can think of in Assisi and tells them all to go pray to their demons and false spirits "for peace". By the way Benedict is doing a repeat of Assisi, I read that very recently. You have Catholics who think multiculturalism trumps preaching the gospel and inculturation that puts 'Christianity' into the blender with endless pagan practices. You have priests that dont even understand [u]after years of seminary[/u] that killing a chicken and doing liquor libations to tree spirits isnt Christian... Something is very wrong with your church. Stop sleeping, it is not just a "few sinners" or a rare Catholics. It is Catholic sites that claim they support the "unity of all religions". It is Catholics who consider it offensive for anyone to preach the gospel, and who claim cultures and church come before Jesus Christ. I am used to Rome talking about of both sides of their mouths and am totally unimpressed with your bishop's correction. What kind of religious leaders are these if they dont even understand the Holy Spirit and continue with magic spells. They never really even truly converted. The bishops can complain all they want but they are part of the problem. I wonder how many of them have attended the pow-wows where the Popes preached peace via "traditional religions".
Dave Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' date='Aug 17 2006, 09:57 PM' post='1045771'] You have Cardinal McCarrick praying to Allah.[/quote] Arabic Christians use the name "Allah" to refer to God as well. That's just the word for God in their language, no matter what their religion. [quote]You have Pope's teaching "The Seeds of the Word are in pagan religions"[/quote] Once again, you choose to misunderstand. What he meant was that even pagan religions have a little bit of truth to them. For example, even most pagan religions teach that murder, stealing, adultery, etc. are wrong. So you see? They do get some things right. So if you have some true teachings already, then it can help put someone on the road to the FULL TRUTH. [quote]You have Catholic-hybrid religions around the Globe--Voodoo, Columbre, Santeria, Mexican Catholics celebrating the Day of the Dead...[/quote] No, no, no ... that's not the fault of Catholicism! It's the fault of conversion under duress, which only makes for very weak Christians. American slaveowners forced their slaves to become Christians, and since it was coerced, the conversions didn't really "take" ... rather, they continued to worship their pagan gods and to hold to their own beliefs, while at the same time putting up a veneer of Christianity. And it's not just a Catholic problem; Protestant missionaries have gone to Africa and preached the Gospel to the natives and led them in a "sinner's prayer," and as soon as the missionaries leave, the natives start worshiping Christ ALONG WITH the other gods they believe in. [quote]You have a Cardinal giving homage to Ganesha with incense.[/quote] If this is true, it was wrong of the cardinal to do so. However, the actions of just one cardinal -- or even several -- doesn't prove the falsity of Catholicism. [quote]You have a Pope who gathers every pagan religion he can think of in Assisi and tells them all to go pray to their demons and false spirits "for peace". By the way Benedict is doing a repeat of Assisi, I read that very recently.[/quote] First of all, we all need to pray for peace, no matter who we are. Second, Pope John Paul II took the time to preach Christ to them as the Prince of Peace and the only source of true peace. If you don't believe me, look up his addresses to those attending the gathering! [quote]You have Catholics who think multiculturalism trumps preaching the gospel and inculturation that puts 'Christianity' into the blender with endless pagan practices. [/quote] Catholics who think that are wrong, and the Church teaches AGAINST syncretism! How many times do we have to tell you that?! Quit sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalalalalalalalalala ... " Your claims that the Church accepts religious syncretism merely on account of the wrongdoing of individual priests, bishops, and lay people is about as ludicrous as claiming that universities condone cheating simply because rates of student cheating have gone up and yet so many students haven't gotten caught. [quote]You have priests that dont even understand [u]after years of seminary[/u] that killing a chicken and doing liquor libations to tree spirits isnt Christian...[/quote] Oh, some Catholic seminaries are really bad and don't teach authentic Catholicism. It's not the fault of the Church, though, but rather the fault of the faculty at the seminary. [quote]Something is very wrong with your church. Stop sleeping, it is not just a "few sinners" or a rare Catholics.[/quote] No one ever said the Church doesn't have problems. But wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if no one is doing it. So even if the majority of bishops started publicly preaching heresy, it wouldn't mean the Church condones it. [quote]It is Catholic sites that claim they support the "unity of all religions".[/quote] This subject has been dealt with before on here, and you have been told what Dust and the rest of us mean by it. And yet you still persist in claiming that it means something that it doesn't mean. [quote]It is Catholics who consider it offensive for anyone to preach the gospel, and who claim cultures and church come before Jesus Christ.[/quote] Any Catholic who is like that is mistaken. But you're seeing that type of thing where there isn't any! Or rather, you're CHOOSING to see it when there's none! [quote]I am used to Rome talking about of both sides of their mouths and am totally unimpressed with your bishop's correction. What kind of religious leaders are these if they dont even understand the Holy Spirit and continue with magic spells. They never really even truly converted. The bishops can complain all they want but they are part of the problem. I wonder how many of them have attended the pow-wows where the Popes preached peace via "traditional religions". [/quote] Are you so holy that you can see the intentions of our popes and bishops? Do you have magic eyes to see what kind of action or inaction they're taking? Sorry, but the Church doesn't normally make it a habit of telling the public about the actions it takes toward others behind close doors.
Justified Saint Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 Again, all your examples are shams -- and they have been documented as such. Either you use suspect sources, photographic manipulation, or just plain ignorance. While before I thought you were being intentionally deceptive, I think I was thorougly mistaken -- you just don't know what your talking about and lack a fundamental capacity for critical thought. All you know how to do is regurgitate news clippings from fundi sites (Catholic and Protestant). Quite simply nobody is impressed and you're becoming a bore. Since you refuse to be held to a standard of truth and credibility I would exhort you not to defame your character any further. Far from rasing doubts among Catholics about their faith, I suspect you have in fact only strengthened it and shown by personal example the extremes that anti-Catholics are willing to go to malign the truth. And after all your hard work throwing dirt on the Catholic Church you have nothing to show for it -- just a very poor argument that is severely wanting. You said it best yourself -- there is no larger "one world religion" movement to condemn because it only exists in the lonely phantasms of your mind. BTW, if you have any Arab Christian friends (doubtful that you either have friends or know Christians from another country) ask them who they pray to.
MissScripture Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1045560' date='Aug 17 2006, 03:41 PM'] You know when Catholics start screaming LIAR to me, that shows me they have taken the well-worn path of PRIDE and refusing to listen. I know any person who makes a stand against Rome's march towards the antichrist is abused, including even Trad Catholics who havent yet figured out they need to Come out of her. Most of you have no interest in learning, you only seek to DENY, DIVERT and DEFEND even the indefensible. It is sickening how no one here is upset about the breaking of the first commandment over and over. You all dont care about Jesus Christ,worshipping other gods by those who say they are Christians, leading millions to hell, your only goal is to shut up anyone that may get you to think. [/quote] So, I'm curious, what is it called when you chose to blatantly disregard everything everyone is saying and merely throw insults such as prideful and claim that you know better than everyone else?
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) [quote] Arabic Christians use the name "Allah" to refer to God as well. That's just the word for God in their language, no matter what their religion.[/quote] Ahh yes Ive heard that excuse except your Cardinal did it for the King of Jordan and even used an Islamic prayer...and name for their god. [quote] "A few months ago, when I was privileged to pray for you on another occasion in this capital city,I asked [size=5]Allah, the compassionate and merciful Lord of all[/size] to bless you and to help you make your country a bridge across which all nations might walk in unity, fellowship and love. As I listened to your words today, I believe my prayer is being answered."[/b][/quote] Here was the original link, youll see Mccarricks name on it, they were so embarrassed they had to take it down... it was taken down the week this controversy broke. [url="http://publicaffairs.cua.edu/speeches/06McCarrickRemarksJordan.htm"]LINK[/url] [quote] Once again, you choose to misunderstand. What he meant was that even pagan religions have a little bit of truth to them. For example, even most pagan religions teach that murder, stealing, adultery, etc. are wrong. So you see? They do get some things right. So if you have some true teachings already, then it can help put someone on the road to the FULL TRUTH.[/quote] This quibbling is one reason you Catholics are so confused, with your Vatican teaching you about the truth of other religions. [quote] If this is true, it was wrong of the cardinal to do so. However, the actions of just one cardinal -- or even several -- doesn't prove the falsity of Catholicism.[/quote] I havent found one living Cardinal yet that preaches or warns against interreligious dialogue. They all involved themselves in these false actions? Why follow the wolves? [quote] First of all, we all need to pray for peace, no matter who we are. Second, Pope John Paul II took the time to preach Christ to them as the Prince of Peace and the only source of true peace. If you don't believe me, look up his addresses to those attending the gathering![/quote] Ive read Assisi paperwork quite extensively, actually they had the rule NOT to prolestyze. This was one definite march to antichrist universalism. JPII did not preach that one needs to be saved in Jesus Christ to be saved but sponsered these folks going to their individual rooms to pray to their demons and false gods. When I found out about this still as a Catholic, it was one thing that woke me up. [quote] Catholics who think that are wrong, and the Church teaches AGAINST syncretism! How many times do we have to tell you that?! Quit sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalalalalalalalalalala ... " Your claims that the Church accepts religious syncretism merely on account of the wrongdoing of individual priests, bishops, and lay people is about as ludicrous as claiming that universities condone cheating simply because rates of student cheating have gone up and yet so many students haven't gotten caught.[/quote] Those words are empty. When you have your own Popes and Cardinals committing endless acts of syncretism...and you are in deep denial if you think it is only rare individuals in your heirarchy involving themselves in these acts, it is MOST of them if not all. [quote]No one ever said the Church doesn't have problems. But wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if no one is doing it.[u] So even if the majority of bishops started publicly preaching heresy, it wouldn't mean the Church condones it[/u].[/quote] I guess Satan has his wiles to get you to follow these Christ-rejecters into the ditch. [quote]Are you so holy that you can see the intentions of our popes and bishops? Do you have magic eyes to see what kind of action or inaction they're taking? Sorry, but the Church doesn't normally make it a habit of telling the public about the actions it takes toward others behind close doors.[/quote] I can read on the Vatican website myself what they teach, say and do. It has nothing with me being more holy...but Gods Word and what it teaches. This doesnt have to do with me. Their actions are against Christ, Assisi was against Christ, teaching there are truths in false religions is against Christ, hobnobbing with the UN is against Christ, they are leading all of you into the ditch. [quote]. Either you use suspect sources, photographic manipulation, or just plain ignorance. While before I thought you were being intentionally deceptive, [/quote] Are these photoshopped too? Someone better tell the Vatican. [url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/documents/travels/index_photo_assisi_en.html"]PHOTOS STRAIGHT FROM THE VATICAN[/url] [img]http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/img/20020124_n6.jpg[/img] Vooduns doing their rituals at Assisi. [quote] Since you refuse to be held to a standard of truth and credibility I would exhort you not to defame your character any further. Far from rasing doubts among Catholics about their faith, I suspect you have in fact only strengthened it and shown by personal example the extremes that anti-Catholics are willing to go to malign the truth.[/quote] You are attacking me because you do not want to face facts about what is happening in your church. I faced them and I got out, realizing the Catholic Church is the counterfeit church warned of in Revelation. Edited August 18, 2006 by Budge
Justified Saint Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1045923' date='Aug 18 2006, 05:50 AM'] You are attacking me because you do not want to face facts about what is happening in your church. [/quote] What FACTS? Your entire argument is a SHAM. Once the serious critiques come, you just deflect the whole issue and bring up some "new" piece of "evidence" while forgetting the fact that your argument is falling to pieces underneath you! Your interpretation of every piece of "evidence" on your list is DEAD WRONG and everybody can see that, including non-Catholics. I understand this is a very personal and sensitive issue for you since it was the reason for your conversion, but I hate to tell you that since you are prone to this kind of hysterical and sensationalistic journalistic fanfare you got duped. I really feel sorry for you because if you blindly followed all the previous religious systems you were apart of, then you have just traded in that blindness to be a dupe for the media and hate preaching. Again, you can not be REASONED with when everyone you talk to is in your twisted mind the DEVIL INCARNATE! Trust me, if you are trying to be overzealous to redeem your past sins, willful ignorance and disgraceful conduct is not the way to go.
Lahecil Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [url="http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/witchdoctor"]http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/witchdoctor[/url] (I've been waiting to post this)
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 So Justified Saint, you would be ok with Vooduns doing their rituals at your own church? That pic is right from the Vatican website, so your claims that I am a "hysterical" liar fall flat. Honestly I have figured out that the first commandment is basically spit upon here over and over. Keep calling me a hater all you want for demanding that only the one true God be worshipped. That is ok with me. I fully expect the world to hate me for such a message and all the one world universalists to be jumping up and down with anger saying HOW DARE YOU!
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1045983' date='Aug 18 2006, 08:48 AM'] I fully expect the world to hate me for such a message and all the one world universalists to be jumping up and down with anger saying HOW DARE YOU! [/quote] Budge, we don't hate you, we feel sorry for you. You spit upon the Church and rage at her constantly; I pray that it will not be your damnation. All of your posts show us what we can already find when we look out the window: humans being human. On the other hand, the Church shows us something truly shocking: humans being divine. All your posts, all your ranting and raving, all your frothing hatred, and all your prideful indignation shatters into nothing upon the rock of holiness and faith that is to be found in the Saints, who are the fruit of the Church. Saints Peter, Paul, and the other apostles produced Saints Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, Perpetua, and Felicity. From these we get Saints Basil, Cyril, John Chrysostem, John Damascene, Athanasius, Hilary of Portier, Jerome, and Augustine. These in turn produce Saints like Anselm, Aquinas, Bonaventure, Catherine of Siena, and Teresa of Avila. From these come Saint Maximilian Colbe, Saint Theresa Benedicta of the Cross, and Mother Theresa. The tree will be known by the fruit that it bares. You're posts scream out and try to call attention to what we already know: Humans, both in the Church and outside it, are sinners. This is no surprise, and for all your large font, it remains no shock at all. What is a surprise, what is truly shocking, is the fact that amidst all of the evil that we should expect to see, in the Church we find truly good fruit, and we find it in abundance. It has born this fruit from Christ until now, and will continue to do so until He comes in glory. Now that is a shock worthy of bold letters and large type. Edited August 18, 2006 by JeffCR07
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 I [quote]All of your posts show us what we can already find when we look out the window: humans being human. On the other hand, the Church shows us something truly shocking: humans being divine.[/quote] And instead of being outraged at whats going on and protesting it, you excuse it, diminish it--oh its just a 'few" sinners and attack the messenger. Your church is denying Jesus Christ rife through out the institution from the Cardinals on down. That is anything but a GOOD FRUIT.
thessalonian Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 "Vooduns doing their rituals at Assisi." I see someone sitting on a mat having lunch myself.
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 Unless "lunch" is a bottle of vodka...you need to take another look. Go to the link, you can see all the pictures there from Assisi, including that one.
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1046036' date='Aug 18 2006, 09:29 AM'] I And instead of being outraged at whats going on and protesting it, you excuse it, diminish it--oh its just a 'few" sinners and attack the messenger. Your church is denying Jesus Christ rife through out the institution from the Cardinals on down. That is anything but a GOOD FRUIT. [/quote] c.f. the Saints They are the stumbling block you cannot leap over
Justified Saint Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 (edited) On the contrary, in a world dominated by fundamentalisms and hate, you fit in quite well with the world. I see no point in answering your rhetorical questions, since the answers are ignored. You goofed on Cardinal McCarrick (Jesus prayed to "Allaha". You deny that God is compassionate and merciful). You did a hack job on Pope Benedict XVI, including direct (maybe intentional) misrepresentation of his words. You lifted a "report" on Cardinal Dias (the same cardinal suspected of being an Opus Dei contact!) straight from a propoganda site based soley on a fuzzy photo. Your "report" on Cardinal Law came from the most anti-Catholic news outlet in the world (why would they ever want to say anything nice or fair about Cardinal Law?) Your conflation of inter-faith dialogue with a "one world religion" theory is evidence of your basic lack of a capacity for critical thought. The simple fact is that if it fits with your agenda, YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ ON THE INTERNET. I am guessing that since you are older, you just never had a class on basic, objective internet research and it certainly shows. I can be understanding toward that deficency, but it should be no excuse from observing the rules of simple internet etiquette and mature conduct. Your theory has been entertained and it has been found wanting so there is no reason for you to be disgraceful about it. You could be entirely right about the Catholic Church, but don't use your sham arguments and "facts" and whatever you think being "saved" by Jesus means, it does not give you the license to be dishonest. I know a lot of people like you -- they don't do their homework and the bottom line is they are bores. That is hardly insulting, it's just an empircal fact. You can change that though. Edited August 18, 2006 by Justified Saint
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 [quote] c.f. the Saints They are the stumbling block you cannot leap over[/quote] Actually some of your saints would be on my side... [size=5] Saint Francis Xavier, the apostle to India, said of Hinduism: [b]“All the invocations of the pagans are hateful to God because all their gods are devils.”[/b][/size]
Guest JeffCR07 Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 then you are plucking the fruit from our tree in order to eat?
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 JS, Instead of facing what is going on, your only option is to label me a liar and claim every source is false, even though I used several CATHOLIC sources including a direct link to the Vatican on these threads. [quote] You goofed on Cardinal McCarrick (Jesus prayed to "Allaha". You deny that God is compassionate and merciful).[/quote] That is a well known Muslim prayer, with that direct phrase used. He was praying in front of Islamics including the King of Jordan--a Muslim as well. But even then he was backing up the false teachings of Rome. [quote] CCC 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.[/quote]" [quote] You did a hack job on Pope Benedict XVI, including direct (maybe intentional) misrepresentation of his words.[/quote] You may want to take that up with Zenit, a PRO-CATHOLIC website. I believe they are ran by the Legionaires of Christ. [quote] You lifted a "report" on Cardinal Dias (the same cardinal suspected of being an Opus Dei contact!) straight from a propoganda site based soley on a fuzzy photo.[/quote] Fuzzy? I could see it just fine. Your claims of endless photoshopping are ludicrous. I guess these are all fake too... [img]http://www.statveritas.com.ar/Los_Frutos_del_Concilio/fotos/Fatima-09.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/images/0704desec/fp1.jpg[/img] [quote] Your "report" on Cardinal Law came from the most anti-Catholic news outlet in the world (why would they ever want to say anything nice or fair about Cardinal Law?)[/quote] Yeah and Im sure Cardinal Law's role in the sex scandals was all lies too... [quote] Your conflation of inter-faith dialogue with a "one world religion" theory is evidence of your basic lack of a capacityJS for critical thought.[/quote] No its belief in Gods Word and Prophecy. Instead of dealing with what I have told you and even going to research things for yourself--it is easier to cop out and just claim Im a liar.
Justified Saint Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1046072' date='Aug 18 2006, 09:00 AM'] JS, That is a well known Muslim prayer, with that direct phrase used. He was praying in front of Islamics including the King of Jordan--a Muslim as well. But even then he was backing up the false teachings of Rome.[/quote] Is the Jewish God an idol as well? Muslims take a lot of their prayers from the Bible. A very LONG SHOT from saying that he is a universalist, but with you everything is out of proportion gripped by fantacism as you are. [quote]You may want to take that up with Zenit, a PRO-CATHOLIC website. I believe they are ran by the Legionaires of Christ.[/quote] You quoted a book by B16 that you haven't read -- though it was pretty embarrassing for yourself that you disagreed with the quote. One of the articles on a B16 sermon was just solid Catholic doctrine on invincible ignorance that had nothing to do with your one world religion theory. [quote] Fuzzy? I could see it just fine. Your claims of endless photoshopping are ludicrous.[/quote] I haven't been claiming anything has been photoshopped, but just that you don't know how to contextualize or interpret [i.e. the Hindu "blessing" on JPII] [quote]Instead of dealing with what I have told you and even going to research things for yourself--it is easier to cop out and just claim Im a liar. [/quote] What research? You didn't do any yourself -- you just cut and paste! You don't have an ounce of credibility on this site and it just embarrassing that you would continue on like this. As long as you are allowed to post here (though I think you should be banned) you will be held accountable even if you don't take personal resonsibility.
Budge Posted August 18, 2006 Author Posted August 18, 2006 [quote] Is the Jewish God an idol as well? Muslims take a lot of their prayers from the Bible. A very LONG SHOT from saying that he is a universalist, but with you everything is out of proportion gripped by fantacism as you are.[/quote] Muslims dont worship Jehovah... [img]http://216.105.48.151/ProductImages/moongodallah.jpg[/img] [quote] You don't have an ounce of credibility on this site and it just embarrassing that you would continue on like this. As long as you are allowed to post here (though I think you should be banned) you will be held accountable even if you don't take personal resonsibility.[/quote] Youre just upset because you dont like finding these things out. Attack the messenger has been your total modus operanti instead of actually dealing with the issues.
Justified Saint Posted August 18, 2006 Posted August 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1046095' date='Aug 18 2006, 09:43 AM'] Muslims dont worship Jehovah... [img]http://216.105.48.151/ProductImages/moongodallah.jpg[/img][/quote] What can you tell us about that book? [quote]Youre just upset because you dont like finding these things out. Attack the messenger has been your total modus operanti instead of actually dealing with the issues. [/quote] You silence implies assent. You stand corrected and your admission has been noted.
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