TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I'm not completely blind to the point that Jas is making...I disagree with parts of it. As far as the immorality of breaking the law... Morality is based on how the action effects you and others around you. If what we do is done responsibly so that it can hurt no one, then how can it be immoral? So by what you are saying, it is just as immoral to jaywalk or to speed or to burn a copy of a cd? Or is it just immoral because it is drinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 so why not just increase penalties for drunk driving?? And if I drink and dont drive...why does that law have to apply to me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 (edited) it's not that i don't get jas's point, i don't think it's a valid one. i think there is a complete disconnect between law and morality. breaking the law is not in and of itself truly wrong, it depends on the law and on the harm that comes from breaking it. no one is hurt by the fact that i drink. the catholic chgurch doesn't say that i shouldn't drink, therefore i gladly drinnk with a clear conscience. Edited July 29, 2003 by hyperdulia again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Morallity is not only based on the consequences. Is it a lie if it doesn't harm the other person? Is it okay to steal a dollar if the other person does not miss the dollar. It's only a dollar. Hyper, The Catholic Church teaches we are to obey the law unless there is a higher moral purpose to disobey it. Regardless of how good or bad we feel about the law. My ultimate goal is to discourage underage drinking. Not only is it morally wrong, but it is a misconception of the lack of harm caused by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 yes...but a lying and stealing HURT THE PERSON DOING THE LYING AND STEALING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logos Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I'm not completely blind to the point that Jas is making...I disagree with parts of it. As far as the immorality of breaking the law... Morality is based on how the action effects you and others around you. If what we do is done responsibly so that it can hurt no one, then how can it be immoral? So by what you are saying, it is just as immoral to jaywalk or to speed or to burn a copy of a cd? Or is it just immoral because it is drinking? You are right about morality. It is possible however that you are hurting yourself by breaking the law. For one, you are breaking down your own sense of authority and of obedience. As Catholics we should know about those two ideas. It is also a matter of respect to obey the law. I hate many of the laws in this country (see Texas sodomy ruling as example) yet I still love this country. We have seen that there are exceptions to underage drinking (religious services, with the responsible supervision of parents)..we should keep in mind that this entire discussion is supposed to focus on underage college drinking. No parents, usually at a strangers house, with tons of other kids around. Just as there are exceptions to underage drinking, there are exceptions to other laws. Speeding is acceptable if you're going w/ the flow of traffic. Otherwise, you should not speed. You should not jaywalk either. It is an instance of breaking the law, disrespecting authority, and being disobedient. Give to Ceasar what it Ceasar's. Yes, burning illegal copies is immorral. Besides being illegal, it is stealing. Pax Christi- logos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Thank you ToV. Actually in my state I'm not breaking any law as long as someone over twenty one is in the room/house, so an otherwise inocuous act becomes immoral when one crosses state lines? THat is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 what if im going with the flow of life and having a beer with a few of my friends I havent seen in a while????? why is speeding acceptable as long as everyone is doing it??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 yes...but a lying and stealing HURT THE PERSON DOING THE LYING AND STEALING You are correct. Now let me ask you a question, if you take a dollar from me, and I don't notice it and not miss it, how are you hurt and how am I hurt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 (edited) Im hurt because it breaks down my honesty whether you know it or not.... and i know where you are going with it Logos said it a sec ago Breaking the law breaks down my sense of authority...but if the law is wacted, my sense of authority on the matter is already broken down. Edited July 29, 2003 by TempleofVesarius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 Thank you ToV. Actually in my state I'm not breaking any law as long as someone over twenty one is in the room/house, so an otherwise inocuous act becomes immoral when one crosses state lines? THat is silly. There are two acts. One act is drinking within the law. The other act is breaking the law. It has already pointed out that it doesn't matter if the law is silly or not. It is not morally permissible to intentionally break the law. ToV. Speeding was brought up as going with the flow of traffic. You could know that mean on a highway, not speeding through a neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 highway or neighborhood...going anywhere above the posted speed limit is against the law (i didnt say it was immoral) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 You're just re-hashing the same old argument with different words. Going 5 mph over in a 70 mph zone is different than going 5 mph in a 15 mph school crossing zone. Nobody thought you weren't reasonable. It's 8 pm here. I've been posting while waiting for reports to print at work. It's been a 13 hour day for me with not break. I'm done wit'ya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TempleofVesarius Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Im not re-hashing anything Is BREAKING THE LAW to speed immoral in one case? yes in the other? prolly not so is breaking the law for me to drink responsibly immoral? is breaking the law for someone to drink irresponsibly immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I can't believe this thread is 7 pages.. .where have I been? I agree with Winchester. Something does not become moral or immoral based upon legislation. It's perfectly okay to drink underage, because the laws are arbitrary. In moderation, it's okay, just like for those in the (current) legal drinking age. And with dUSt on this statement as well: So... If you were to drink under age, it wouldn't neccesarily be immoral--rather, unlawful The immorality of breaking most laws is that they go against Natural Law. Having a beer under the age of 21 breaks a civil law, but in and of itself may not be immoral. Having an alcoholic beverage does nto go against Natural Law. I think speeding (since this seems to be the hot-topic comparison) is worse than an 18 year old drinking responsibly (key word here "responsibly"). Alot more harm can come to those around you when you're speeding than when you drink a couple beers responsibly (again, not that key word...). No one should get drunk, thats a sin no matter how old you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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