hyperdulia again Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 not just seven pages Katie, but like eight or so hours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 not just seven pages Katie, but like eight or so hours... I kinda thought it must have burst forth sometime during the day today. My husband had to work and my computer is the only one hooked up to the modem right now so I was computerless most of the day. (I'm so pampered...) I'm just now catching up to everything. I actually didn't read all of this thread.I got part way through it and had to stop and just post what I wanted to say or I'd have been pouring over it for goodness only knows how long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Guys, No matter what you think... The Church teaches that it is a sin to break the law. If you drink and are underage you are sinning. NO if's, and's, or but's about it. Don't try to justify your sins, it will lead to worse things... Saying the Church is wrong on this point is just as bad as saying it's wrong on abortion... because the Church is never wrong in matters of Faith and Morals. Gravity of that sin is another issue. http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t1chpt2art2.htm 1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17 17. Rom 13:1-2; cf. 1 Pet 2:13-17. End of story. There is nothing to debate, breaking the law is a sin. Like dust said earlier, check your state laws. As far as abortion goes, though it is a sin, the government does not force abortion on anyone. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReformationNow Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Guys, No matter what you think... The Church teaches that it is a sin to break the law. If you drink and are underage you are sinning. NO if's, and's, or but's about it. Don't try to justify your sins, it will lead to worse things... Saying the Church is wrong on this point is just as bad as saying it's wrong on abortion... because the Church is never wrong in matters of Faith and Morals. Gravity of that sin is another issue. http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t1chpt2art2.htm 1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17 17. Rom 13:1-2; cf. 1 Pet 2:13-17. End of story. There is nothing to debate, breaking the law is a sin. Like dust said earlier, check your state laws. As far as abortion goes, though it is a sin, the government does not force abortion on anyone. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Gotta give Ironmonk props for this. Drinking illegally is NOT acceptable, regardless of the morality of drinking itself. We are to obey government as long as it does not interfere with God's commands for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I totally agree with Ironmonk. That's just the way it is. The CHURCH says so. This reminds me of when my babysitters would make me do things my mom didn't require me to do. Whenever she would get home I'd complain to her about all the awful things my babysitter made me do and how unfair it was. She'd tell me that she left the babysitter in charge and so long as the babysitter didn't tell me to do something that would hurt me, I had to do it. That's what the Church is telling us. So stop complaining and do what you're ask to do or not do!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Make me a channel of your peace............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 uhoh. The intent of the law is to prevent the issues (statistical issues) associated with underage drinking. Since human beings are endowed with reason, I argue that following the spirit of that law, in other words, drinking responsibly, is in moral conformity. I'll be happy to study the moral theology section of the Catechism regarding legislation to double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 breaking the LAW IS NOT A SIN IN AND OF ITSELF. IF THAT WERE THE CASE THEN CATHOLICS IN CHINA WOULD BE SXINNINGG JUST FOR BEING CATHOLIC. TALK TO A PRIEST VIANNEY. GOD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS LAY LITERACY NON-SENSE. AMEN. Please visit this page and read it: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t1chpt2art2.htm Breaking the law is a sin. China is another story. Their laws violate human rights. Their laws violate the laws of God. The US Laws do not violate human rights or the laws of God. Some things that are legal are sins, but those things that are legal (abortion) is not forced on anyone by the government. If someone is underage (again, look up your state laws on the interent regarding alcohol) in the US and drinks, they are sinning. End of Story... people can disagree, but they will not be right. It is not me that saying this, it is the Church. If anyone has an issue with breaking the law not being a sin... You need to take it up with the Catholic Church. I have made this sin many times (breaking the law), but I'm not going to say what I did was ok just because I did it and liked it. On the contrary, I'm going to say that I am a sinner, and I need Christ to help me avoid the sin... and I should feel shame everytime I do the least of sins. The more shame I feel, the more I will remember next time temptation strikes. I must change for Christ. It's hard. It can take a long time, but little by little does the trick. I use to think it was ok, drinking a little alcohol if someone was underage... but when it comes down to it... it's not ok. So now I must change, and I have. No longer will any underage person drink in my house. Breaking a law that does not go against God's laws is a sin. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 uhoh. The intent of the law is to prevent the issues (statistical issues) associated with underage drinking. Since human beings are endowed with reason, I argue that following the spirit of that law, in other words, drinking responsibly, is in moral conformity. I'll be happy to study the moral theology section of the Catechism regarding legislation to double check. Please visit this page and read it: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...t1chpt2art2.htm In the principality of your argument you making the same mistake luther did. It's man's own reason that lead us to original sin. Through our own reason satan attacks. Why not just trust the Church on this matter? as with all matters we should. Our own reason will lead us further from Christ, for that is our nature. It does not hurt us in anyway to wait until it's legal to drink. Yet, some think that they are wiser than God?! Enough with the non-sense. The Church knows. Since when are you wiser than the Church? Catholics change when the Church corrects them. I don't like it, but the bottom line is that it is a sin... Therefore I WILL CHANGE. Who on this board will not change for Christ? God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I thought this was a Catholic Forum... Am I wrong? 1899 The authority required by the moral order derives from God: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."17 17. Rom 13:1-2; cf. 1 Pet 2:13-17. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Wow, this is insane! The Catholic Church says that we are to obey the laws of the land, but the church says that we can also have the right to disobey laws for the sake of higher causes, does it not? Drinking even though you aren't 21 could be considered a form of civil disobedience if one believes that alcohol is a right, which I don't think is terribly unreasonable given the Bible's praises of alcohol as a heavenly gift, when used in moderation. Is it not possible that both opinions being argued for are within the realms of Catholic dogma? God never intended to give us all the answers to everything. I, for one, say, "Let the debate rage on!" And I'll remind everyone that this is an issue I brought up months ago, more or less, when I found out about a Catholic at my parish who was throwing drinking parties in his apartment even though he and most people in attendance were under-age. Of course, I imagine there was a lot of drunkenness involved. In any case, I was pretty scandalized by it. We never really came to a consensus about the issue then either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 well you deserve a cookie, ironmonk. in alabama i can drink if there is someone over twenty-one present. there is. If that's the law, then you can drink without it being a sin. That's why Dust posted to check the laws. So, in reality my posts where not to you because you are drinking legally in AL. That's not the law here... when I was under 21 and drinking, I was sinning. No way I can get around it. If I was under 21 I could not drink here without it being a sin. Now I cannot let anyone underage drink in my house.... it's something that I don't like, but I will obey. We're Catholic... that's what we do. God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted July 30, 2003 Author Share Posted July 30, 2003 Thank you for clearing this subject up for me, I think i will wait till i am twenty one if anything just to obey the laws that govern this land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Iron, I've read the quote you're using. I disagree right now (pending further study) your application of that quote. I do trust the Church, and I mightily resent your accusation that I do not. I do not trust your application of that particular quote. Larger type has not impressed upon me your correctness. The authority required by the moral order. Fine. This law is based upon the outcomes of a certain age being allowed to drink. It seeks to abrogate these effects by a blanket law. That is the intent of the law, not to prevent underage drinking, but to prevent the bad effects thereof. Drinking in moderation avoids the bad issues with which the law was concerned and therefore follows the important aspect of this human law. I am not advocating illegally buying alcohol. I am not advocating alcohol abuse. I am advocating observing the intent of the law, something which is of inseperable concern in moral theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Winchester, Are you saying that Civil law is to be obeyed only to the limits of personally discernened "spirit of intent"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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