Mixed Messages?

[prose]

[quote name='Angelus_Domini' post='1267877' date='May 8 2007, 02:24 AM']I personally must say that for myself, i was quite sandalised when I first saw that picture. Forget the context, look at the picture- and ask yourself what comes to mind. This is all the more disheartening because it is hardly the first time or the gravest incident. Now, am I going to abandon Holy Mother Church and graft myself onto something else that is not what our Lord established/ No. But, that is in large part due to what I have experienced and come to fully understand and appreciate in God's mercy about His Grace, Truth and Church. God's grace continues to come to us through thos men whom He has chosen no matter what their faults.[/quote]

This pretty well sums up how I feel about this.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268092' date='May 8 2007, 02:46 PM']I am opposed to anyone performing practices that are a part of a religious / ritual tradition other than that of the Catholic Church.

Sadlly, these kinds of actions ultimately harm the good of the Church by causing scandal among the faithful, while they also damage the cause of ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox, who see these types of activities as contrary to the teaching of the ancient canons forbidding prayer and worship with pagans.[/quote]So, you would say that this picture of Archbishop Sambi lighting a candle constitutes scandal, reveals an advocacy of indifferentialism, and damages ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox, who believe that the Archbishop was praying and worshipping with pagans?

All this from lighting a candle during an award ceremony reception?

I'm guessing that someone handed the Archbishop a lighter and said something like, "This candle symbolizes the conquest of good over evil." Now, should the archbishop--in this case--have said, "I'm sorry, in conscience, I can't agree with that symbolism"? This would be a very strange way to act, considering that Christians actually believe that good conquered evil.

In any event, this rush to judgment is approaching the insanity of those who attack Christmas and Easter for their "pagan symbols."

[Apotheoun]

Yes, I am saddened by the bishop's actions.

Now, of course, you may see it as "simply lighting a candle," but for a Hindu it is an act of worship.

That said, I am absolutely opposed to theological indifferentism in whatever form it takes.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1268119' date='May 8 2007, 12:34 PM']In any event, this rush to judgment is approaching the insanity of those who attack Christmas and Easter for their "pagan symbols."[/quote]
Are you saying that the Church has adopted this Hindu practice as a Christian liturgical ceremony?

It is one thing if the Church, after mature reflection and with due diligence in safeguarding the Gospel message, purifies and adopts elements of existing religious practices and brings them into the liturgy, but quite another for a Christian (particularly a bishop) to perform a pagan rite.

God bless,
Todd

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268159' date='May 8 2007, 04:43 PM']Are you saying that the Church has adopted this Hindu practice as a Christian liturigical ceremony?

It is one thing if the Church adopts and purifies religious practices and brings them into the liturgy, but quite another for a Christian (particularly a bishop) to perform a pagan rite.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]With regard to the "adoption" of this practice, I would suggest that the candle [b]already[/b] symbolizes for Christians the triumph of good over evil. It symbolizes Jesus Christ, the light of the world, illuminating the world with His Truth, against the darkness of ignorance. For these reasons, I don't think I would say we are "adopting" an alien practice, because we already use the symbolism when we light our own candles.

As I mentioned, the facts (as far as we can glean from reports) are:
1) This occured at the John Paul II Cultural Center
2) The event was a reception for an award ceremony, not a liturgical ceremony

There is nothing strictly liturgical about Christmas trees and Easter eggs, which is why I used them as a comparison.

In contrast to Budge's claim that there is some deity being worshipped, all of the websites I have read suggest nothing of the sort. The websites suggest that these candles are used outside of the context of Hindu temple worship. The candles seem to be the kind of popular (i.e. "of the people") tradition which happens in the setting of someone's home (again: the Christmas tree parallel), not necessarily in a temple.

We don't have many more facts about this situation, so I think it's idle speculation to try to infer more than the known facts show. It's something akin to hearing a partial account of St. Paul's visit to the altar of the unknown god (Acts 17:23) and assuming that he had embraced the paganism of the Athenians.

[Apotheoun]

The bishop in question is lighting this particular candle in front of a pagan (Hindu) idol. His actions are scandalous and evince a form of theological indifferentism.

As a Catholic I am not going to defend the foolish things done by various priests and bishops around the world.

[Mateo el Feo]

Here's his contact information:

Mailing Address:
3339 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W
Washington, DC 20008

Telephone: (202)333-7121
Fax: 337-4036

[url="http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxxus.html"]http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxxus.html[/url]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Okay, as interesting as this is, it's degraded into an occasion for Catholic vs. Catholic debate. Let's try to get it back on topic.

God bless,

Raphael

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1268186' date='May 8 2007, 02:22 PM']Here's his contact information:

Mailing Address:
3339 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W
Washington, DC 20008

Telephone: (202)333-7121
Fax: 337-4036

[url="http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxxus.html"]http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dxxus.html[/url][/quote]
I have no intention of participating in a Catholic vs. Catholic debate. That said, perhaps as a member of the Roman Rite you should write to the bishop and ask why he is lighting candles in front of pagan idols.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - For Eastern Catholics to light a candle in front of an icon is an act of worship. Sadly, the idol shown in the picture can in no way be seen as a Christian icon.

P.P.S - Catholics are under no obligation to defend bizarre actions performed by clerics.

[Budge]

Hey if lighting a lamp to Vishnu or Shiva is ok, I guess the Cardinal can go do a Wiccan spell, maybe he can take part in a winter solstice--oops that already happened! or pray to Allah in a mosque--oops already happened, silly me...

And you folks still dont get why an EX-Universalist who read the BIble and got saved and knows Jesus Christ is only way and truth, wouldnt put up with this stuff in your church?


I[quote]n contrast to Budge's claim that there is some deity being worshipped, all of the websites I have read suggest nothing of the sort. The [/quote]Nonsense.

[quote]
We don't have many more facts about this situation, so I think it's idle speculation to try to infer more than the known facts show. It's something akin to hearing a partial account of St. Paul's visit to the altar of the unknown god (Acts 17:23) and assuming that he had embraced the paganism of the Athenians.[/quote]

The apostles didnt light lamps to Baal, your apostles of deceit DO.

Mateo, frankly its kind of sickening watching you defend this stuff, at least a few of the Catholics here have a little bit of conscience left to know its wrong.

You know some of you would make good defense lawyers, you can come up with an excuse for everything.

I suppose if the guy said Hail Satan and sacrificed a goat, youd probably tell us, he was helping make dinner for the interfaith group.

[Budge]

[quote]This is from the first Google link I looked at related to rangoli candles.

Other sources discuss the association of the rangoli candle with the Dawali celebration, which commemorates the victory of good over evil. Maybe you have a problem with someone who believes that good was victorious over evil? Hmmm...

Yet another case of Budge seeing what she wants to see.[/quote]

Mateo,

youre a Universalist.

Full stop.

If you want to go light a lamp to Krishna, go ahead, but dont claim youre a Christian, and neither should your apostate bishop.

[mortify]

Sigh,

Yes, I agree with Apotheon. Perhaps you Eastern Catholics could influx into the Western Rite for a couple of years, until we straighten everything out.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1268429' date='May 8 2007, 09:58 PM']Mateo,

youre a Universalist.

Full stop.[/quote]I have never seen the inside of a Universalist Church, and my insistence on being a member of the One Catholic Apostolic Faith seems to be a slight problem for your quack-theory. You yourself have to deal with your history of accepting the tenants of Universalism, not I.
[quote name='Budge' post='1268429' date='May 8 2007, 09:58 PM']If you want to go light a lamp to Krishna, go ahead, but dont claim youre a Christian, and neither should your apostate bishop.[/quote]Insane. This "lamp" was not a "lamp", it was a candle. And, where did the website say anything against Krishna? Seriously Budge, check the Ten Commandments and tell me why you insist on bearing false witness against others. Thou shalt not, Budge.

[Budge]

[quote]This "lamp" was not a "lamp", it was a candle.[/quote]

Get some glasses...

Thats not a candle...

[img]http://i18.tinypic.com/6auooba.jpg[/img]

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Budge' post='1268579' date='May 8 2007, 08:50 PM']Get some glasses...

Thats not a candle...

[img]http://i18.tinypic.com/6auooba.jpg[/img][/quote]

Perhaps you're the one who needs their eyes checked. That's not even the same picture.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1268579' date='May 8 2007, 11:50 PM']Get some glasses...

Thats not a candle...[/quote]Maybe you should read the caption of the picture on the source website.

[kenrockthefirst]

Here's my take, FWIW:
[list=1]
[*]Bishops in particular must not only be pure but [i]be seen[/i] to be pure. It's impossible for us to know the intent of this particular bishop but lighting a candle in front of a statue of Ganesh certainly appears iffy.
[*]Taking Winchester's point, Budge has used the actions of an individual to paint with a broad brush and condemn the entire Catholic Church. That would be akin, of course, to me challenging Protestantism in general because of the actions of of Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart or Ted Haggard. 'Nuff said.
[/list]

[Budge]

[quote]Taking Winchester's point, Budge has used the actions of an individual to paint with a broad brush and condemn the entire Catholic Church. That would be akin, of course, to me challenging Protestantism in general because of the actions of of Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart or Ted Haggard. 'Nuff said.[/quote]

I dont have to follow Jim bakker, Jimmy Swaggert or Ted Haggard, in fact I consider all of them false preachers....

According to the teachings of your church you have to follow these bishops, Cardinal and Pope.

[SJP]

[quote name='Budge' post='1269132' date='May 9 2007, 02:12 PM']I dont have to follow Jim bakker, Jimmy Swaggert or Ted Haggard, in fact I consider all of them false preachers....

According to the teachings of your church you have to follow these bishops, Cardinal and Pope.[/quote]


Well Budge, it seems to me that you believe that everyone is a false preacher unless they agree with your own personal interpretation of scripture.

Why should I accept your interpretation of scripture? What authority do you have?

Edited May 9, 2007 by SJP

[Budge]

Your bishop who has participated in Hindu worship definitely DIDNT READ IT.

{at least Jimmy Swaggert and Bakker, despite their faults, may truly be born again, and would never ever start bowing or lighting to incense to Ganesha in a public forum}