Mixed Messages?

[angelusdomini]

I personally must say that for myself, i was quite sandalised when I first saw that picture. Forget the context, look at the picture- and ask yourself what comes to mind. This is all the more disheartening because it is hardly the first time or the gravest incident. Now, am I going to abandon Holy Mother Church and graft myself onto something else that is not what our Lord established/ No. But, that is in large part due to what I have experienced and come to fully understand and appreciate in God's mercy about His Grace, Truth and Church. God's grace continues to come to us through thos men whom He has chosen no matter what their faults.
Now, that's for me and probably all the other Catholics on this phorum. We have all had powerful experiences of God's truth and love. We have also lto one degree or another made concerted efforts to learn about our faith and church. That however does not speak on the millions of Catholics who have not been well catechised in their past or presently and who are ambivalent about the Church and her teachings. Who then come across this image and accompanying story or a similar image or story and they try to reconcile that with the little they know or recall of the Bible, Church, Ten Commandments etc and find that these two realities do not match. They may conclude that indeed all religions are the same and no-biggie, if my bishop is going to do that, well... or any other number of conclusions. Point being, this picture (whatever his intnent may be- which I do not intend to speak on, nor can I since I do not know his heart) alone is situation that cause confusion and scandal to the faithful which the church, being our mother, should avoid doing to her children.
Aside to whether this is clearly "apostacty" or not, the church is our mother and a mother has the well being of her children at heart. Attaining heaven is our ultimate well being and those who speak or act in her name should not- through the virtue of prudence (and gifts of the Holy Ghost) provide an environment in which the children's well- being (eternal life) is put at risk (an occasion of sin). Let all faithful catholics pray for his excellency and all other bishops that our Lord's grace will move them to more clearly and heroically live out the vocation as shepherds of His flock. Anyway, just my $.02

BTW, there are two hindu/indian statues in the foreground of that pic. at least the one I saw. Here are some links from catholic blogs which speak on this. As far as I can tell they are fully catholic although some may disagree with some of their opinions.

[url="http://www.rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/"]Rorate Caeli[/url] scroll down to Saturday, May 05, 2007.
[url="http://www.athanasiuscm.blogspot.com/"]Athanasius Contra Mundum[/url]

pax et bonum

[Mateo el Feo]

I love a good scandal as much as the next guy...

But I have trouble understanding why a picture of someone lighting a candle is scandalizing. What meaning are we reading into this act?

[Budge]

Hmm an interfaith meeting with notorious New Ager/Hindu Deepak Chopra, not helping your case here.

I should have recognized him but I didnt.

[img]http://www.ifcmw.org/richedit/upload/2kceebb76cdd.jpg[/img]
[i]
[b]Archbishop Pietro Sambi[/b], Rev. Dr. Clark Lobenstine, [u][b]Deepak Chopra[/b][/u], and Tareq Alassi[/i]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra[/url]

He's one of the biggest New Age gurus out there. I read his stuff while UU.

[url="http://www.watchman.org/profile/choprapro.htm"]DEEPAK CHOPRA PROFILE[/url]

As for the lamp, they light those to their Hindu gods..

[img]http://www.gangesindia.com/catalog/images/DSC_2360-Brs-St-Diya-Big.jpg[/img]

[i]
Vilakku - The Lamp For Gods[/i]

From Hindu website..
[quote]It is believed that worshipping light as God unites people.[/quote]

Edited May 8, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

from that second blog linked to above...
[quote]
Now this raises many very important questions. [b]There are Protestants out there who stand more upright before almighty God than some Catholics. They would never worship false gods, they would never burn incense to idols, and if they met a Hindu, they would have no qualms about sharing the Euangelion, the Gospel of Jesus Christ because they believe rightly that his eternal salvation is imperiled if they don't (not to mention theirs). I have known them, spoken with them, in some cases the grace of God has converted them, and while I generally rail against the false theology of Protestants, I can't help but be blown away by the faith which so many exhibit, when the faith of us Catholics is rather cold.[/b][/quote]

You all know the BIble warns you will all be like your TEACHERS.

If your teachers are worshipping Hindu gods, you are NOT in a good position.

~{Luke 6:39}~

* ---The Blind led by the Blind---


He also told them this Parable

"Can a blind man lead a blind man???
Will they not both, fall into a pit???
A Student is not above his teacher;
but everyone, who is fully trained.
:eek :
will be like his teachers
NIV

* like his teachers


~{Luke 16.31}~
31 And he said unto him,
:rolleyes
If they hear not--
Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded,
though one rose from the dead.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, Jesus also said that we should follow what our teachers do and not necessarily what they say.

I'm sorry, Budge, but in order to win this debate, you're going to have to show that the Catholic Church officially endorses the freedom of Catholics to worship alternative gods. You simply can't prove that because it's not true. You misrepresent the faith by citing Catholics who don't know the faith or bishops who unfortunately aren't following the faith, but that doesn't matter to us, Budge, because we don't just follow Paul or Apollo or any other bishop, we follow Christ.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1267899' date='May 8 2007, 10:01 AM']Hmm an interfaith meeting with notorious New Ager/Hindu Deepak Chopra, not helping your case here.[/quote]Budge, your ignorance boggles the mind. This was not an "interfaith meeting" with Deepak Chopra. It was a small awards ceremony, run by an the interfaith organization whose website I linked to.

[quote name='Budge' post='1267899' date='May 8 2007, 10:01 AM']As for the lamp, they light those to their Hindu gods..[/quote]Actually, I searched specifically for the "traditional Indian rangoli" candle. The caption mentions this explicitly. If you can appreciate the irony, here's a little meaning behind the candle's significance ([url="http://www.diwalimela.com/traditions/rangoli-tradition.html"]link[/url]):[quote]It is a celebration, which teaches us to [b]vanquish ignorance [/b]that subdues humanity and to drive away darkness that engulfs the [b]light of knowledge[/b].[/quote]This is from the first Google link I looked at related to rangoli candles.

Other sources discuss the association of the rangoli candle with the Dawali celebration, which commemorates the victory of good over evil. Maybe you have a problem with someone who believes that good was victorious over evil? Hmmm...

Yet another case of Budge seeing what she wants to see.

[Apotheoun]

Catholics should not become involved in activities that border on indifferentism. That said, the foolish actions of a few bishops or priests does not shake my faith in Christ at all.

God bless,
Todd

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268020' date='May 8 2007, 11:13 AM']Catholics should not become involved in activities that border on indifferentism. That said, the foolish actions of a few bishops or priests does not shake my faith in Christ at all.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268020' date='May 8 2007, 01:13 PM']Catholics should not become involved in activities that border on indifferentism. That said, the foolish actions of a few bishops or priests does not shake my faith in Christ at all.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]Which activities border on indifferentialism? Are you referring to Archbishop Sambi?

[Apotheoun]

I am opposed to anyone performing practices that are a part of a religious / ritual tradition other than that of the Catholic Church.

Sadlly, these kinds of actions ultimately harm the good of the Church by causing scandal among the faithful, while they also damage the cause of ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox, who see these types of activities as contrary to the teaching of the ancient canons forbidding prayer and worship with pagans.

[prose]

[quote name='Angelus_Domini' post='1267877' date='May 8 2007, 02:24 AM']I personally must say that for myself, i was quite sandalised when I first saw that picture. Forget the context, look at the picture- and ask yourself what comes to mind. This is all the more disheartening because it is hardly the first time or the gravest incident. Now, am I going to abandon Holy Mother Church and graft myself onto something else that is not what our Lord established/ No. But, that is in large part due to what I have experienced and come to fully understand and appreciate in God's mercy about His Grace, Truth and Church. God's grace continues to come to us through thos men whom He has chosen no matter what their faults.[/quote]

This pretty well sums up how I feel about this.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268092' date='May 8 2007, 02:46 PM']I am opposed to anyone performing practices that are a part of a religious / ritual tradition other than that of the Catholic Church.

Sadlly, these kinds of actions ultimately harm the good of the Church by causing scandal among the faithful, while they also damage the cause of ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox, who see these types of activities as contrary to the teaching of the ancient canons forbidding prayer and worship with pagans.[/quote]So, you would say that this picture of Archbishop Sambi lighting a candle constitutes scandal, reveals an advocacy of indifferentialism, and damages ecumenism with the Eastern Orthodox, who believe that the Archbishop was praying and worshipping with pagans?

All this from lighting a candle during an award ceremony reception?

I'm guessing that someone handed the Archbishop a lighter and said something like, "This candle symbolizes the conquest of good over evil." Now, should the archbishop--in this case--have said, "I'm sorry, in conscience, I can't agree with that symbolism"? This would be a very strange way to act, considering that Christians actually believe that good conquered evil.

In any event, this rush to judgment is approaching the insanity of those who attack Christmas and Easter for their "pagan symbols."

[Apotheoun]

Yes, I am saddened by the bishop's actions.

Now, of course, you may see it as "simply lighting a candle," but for a Hindu it is an act of worship.

That said, I am absolutely opposed to theological indifferentism in whatever form it takes.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1268119' date='May 8 2007, 12:34 PM']In any event, this rush to judgment is approaching the insanity of those who attack Christmas and Easter for their "pagan symbols."[/quote]
Are you saying that the Church has adopted this Hindu practice as a Christian liturgical ceremony?

It is one thing if the Church, after mature reflection and with due diligence in safeguarding the Gospel message, purifies and adopts elements of existing religious practices and brings them into the liturgy, but quite another for a Christian (particularly a bishop) to perform a pagan rite.

God bless,
Todd

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1268159' date='May 8 2007, 04:43 PM']Are you saying that the Church has adopted this Hindu practice as a Christian liturigical ceremony?

It is one thing if the Church adopts and purifies religious practices and brings them into the liturgy, but quite another for a Christian (particularly a bishop) to perform a pagan rite.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]With regard to the "adoption" of this practice, I would suggest that the candle [b]already[/b] symbolizes for Christians the triumph of good over evil. It symbolizes Jesus Christ, the light of the world, illuminating the world with His Truth, against the darkness of ignorance. For these reasons, I don't think I would say we are "adopting" an alien practice, because we already use the symbolism when we light our own candles.

As I mentioned, the facts (as far as we can glean from reports) are:
1) This occured at the John Paul II Cultural Center
2) The event was a reception for an award ceremony, not a liturgical ceremony

There is nothing strictly liturgical about Christmas trees and Easter eggs, which is why I used them as a comparison.

In contrast to Budge's claim that there is some deity being worshipped, all of the websites I have read suggest nothing of the sort. The websites suggest that these candles are used outside of the context of Hindu temple worship. The candles seem to be the kind of popular (i.e. "of the people") tradition which happens in the setting of someone's home (again: the Christmas tree parallel), not necessarily in a temple.

We don't have many more facts about this situation, so I think it's idle speculation to try to infer more than the known facts show. It's something akin to hearing a partial account of St. Paul's visit to the altar of the unknown god (Acts 17:23) and assuming that he had embraced the paganism of the Athenians.