Tlm At Steubenville

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408032' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:19 PM']I believe FUS had other problems, I thought the school was very cliquey ...but that is another topic.[/quote]
I have heard that from many people, but I didn't think it was cliquey. Don't get me wrong, there were definitely different "groups," but none of them ever seemed to exclude others based on their not being part of the group. I had my "group" and we hung out with random people all the time regardless of their group. Perhaps it was because most of my "group" wasn't involved with households, but a few were.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1408086' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:18 PM']Its not about the mass... its about the fact that Fr. Z told over 150 students that they had to get Mental Help because they wanted the TLM[/quote]

I really wish those 150 people would get out of bed early on Sat morning for Clinic Outreach. Now then we'd be really touching hearts and saving souls! Perhaps, the priests at FUS have good reason for not bringing TLM to campus at this time. If so, the students are called to be obedient to their priests.

[Deus te Amat]

but telling them to get mental help because they signed a petition wanting the tridentine latin mass!??!?!?!

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408091' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:23 PM']I have heard that from many people, but I didn't think it was cliquey. Don't get me wrong, there were definitely different "groups," but none of them ever seemed to exclude others based on their not being part of the group. I had my "group" and we hung out with random people all the time regardless of their group. Perhaps it was because most of my "group" wasn't involved with households, but a few were.[/quote]

If you didn't belong to a HH you were pretty lost, imo. And I think HH took themselves too seriously, to the point were they became cult-ish. It was a campus organization, after all, not a religous order! I guess part of it had to do with my personality, I just like to be friends w/ ppl, and I didn't like differentiating between "my HH sisters" and my "friends..." I loved them all equally. I also didn't like having all those ppl (my HH) knowing my business, or being told what prayers I had to pray each day in order to belong to a certain grouop. Looking back, it seemed rather cult-ish to me.

Edited October 23, 2007 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1408096' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:29 PM']but telling them to get mental help because they signed a petition wanting the tridentine latin mass!??!?!?![/quote]

No, you're right there that was out of line!

[friendofJPII]

I know of one HH in particular who would not let a girl join because they didn't like her. They didn't feel she was "called to their HH" and kept prolonging her entrance when other intents who applied before her entered.

The young woman was very hurt and almost lost her faith. The HH should have been disciplined.

Edited October 23, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408092' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:23 PM']I really wish those 150 people would get out of bed early on Sat morning for Clinic Outreach.[/quote]
What does that have to do with the issues at hand? These kind of comments just show that you don't understand the issues at all and probably shouldn't be spouting off about it.
I don't think this statement is worth entertaining but just for fun I must ask: what makes you presume that said people do not go to the clinic?
I would probably qualify as a "traddy" by many people's standards and I was one core team for four years and went to the clinic three times a week consistently for two years (and weekly for longer).
In all the years that I was involved in that ministry there is one person who stands out as by far the most dedicated, zealous and hard-core participant in that ministry (his activities went far beyond the campus ministry as well). It just so happens that this fellow is an FSSP seminarian these days. I assume you have some kind of bizarre stereotype in mind such that people who love the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] are presumably less interested in helping others (again, such attitudes are manifestations of the hatred of Catholicism that has infected so many in the Church of the past 40 years). I find it particularly ironic considering that perhaps the greatest concentration of pro-life bumper stickers that I've ever seen is at the parking lot of my TLM parish on Sunday mornings.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408092' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:23 PM']Perhaps, the priests at FUS have good reason for not bringing TLM to campus at this time. If so, the students are called to be obedient to their priests.[/quote]
I suspect that the students there are manifesting superb obedience. Because of personal experience I am not so optimistic about the intentions of those who call the shots up there when it comes to this subject. There are a great many priests on that campus who I admire and respect greatly, but as far as liturgical sensibilities are concerned there are no doubt some unfortunate biases. The history of the school would seem to afford an explanation of this fact.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408032' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:19 PM']This is ridiculous. I went to FUS, and I felt the staff did the best they could to incorporate everyone's liturgical preferences. The 6AM mass was quick, quiet, with no singing, the 12 noon was more traditional Novos Ordo w/organ, and the 6:30 was Charismatic. The people who really didn't like the FUS liturgy due to the style of the chapel, music, etc, went to St. Peter's. They were even having the Latin mass (I'm not sure if was Latin Novos Ordo or Latin Tridentine) once a month last time I recall. Really, these liturgical wars have to stop, it's rather petty. The mass is the mass, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, grace is grace, and as long as the mass is licit, is Christ-centered, the true gospel is being proclaimed (a rarity these days, considering what is going on in parishes these days) we are blessed. In the time ppl take arguing Charismatic vs. Traditional they could be performing works of mercy. If you don't like the liturgical style, but the mass is otherwise licit and Christ-centered...offer it up! You are still witnessing the greatest miracle on earth!

I believe FUS had other problems, I thought the school was very cliquey ...but that is another topic.[/quote]
I agree that the Mass is the Mass, and Jesus is still present whether it's the ordinary form, extraordinary form or another Catholic rite.

But Pope John Paul II's document [i]Ecclesia Dei[/i] says that the love and desire for the traditional expression of the Mass is a "legitimate aspiration." He didn't say, "if you don't like the Novus Ordo, just offer it up," he affirmed the peoples' desire to celebrate the Mass this way.

Pope Benedict XVI took JPII's statements to the next level and made the Extraordinary form of the Mass even more accessible for everyday Catholics. In his explaination letter to the Bishops, he emphasized that while the new Mass is good, the old Mass was never abrogated. Yes, it is a blessing that we have the Mass, no matter what it is. Not everyone like the Extraordinary Form. But I think it's sad that a good Catholic university like Steubenville wouldn't want to give its students the chance to experience both the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the Roman Rite on campus, especially since the University makes room for Eastern Catholic divine liturgies from time to time. It makes it really hard for freshmen and students who don't have cars to experience all the Church has to offer.

Charity is of utmost importance when dealing with matters of liturgical differences, and the Church would be a better place if we all took to heart the following statement of the Holy Father:

[quote name='"Letter to Bishops re: Summorum Pontificum"']"This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to unable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: "Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!" (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows."[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408098' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:30 PM']If you didn't belong to a HH you were pretty lost, imo. And I think HH took themselves too seriously, to the point were they became cult-ish. It was a campus organization, after all, not a religous order! I guess part of it had to do with my personality, I just like to be friends w/ ppl, and I didn't like differentiating between "my HH sisters" and my "friends..." I loved them all equally. I also didn't like having all those ppl (my HH) knowing my business, or being told what prayers I had to pray each day in order to belong to a certain grouop. Looking back, it seemed rather cult-ish to me.[/quote]
Hmmm...I wasn't in a household and I had plenty of friends at FUS.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408108' date='Oct 23 2007, 07:35 PM']I know of one HH in particular who would not let a girl join because they didn't like her. They didn't feel she was "called to their HH" and kept prolonging her entrance when other intents who applied before her entered.

The young woman was very hurt and almost lost her faith. The HH should have been disciplined.[/quote]
You know, I did hear of one situation in which a girl's friends all turned on her and kicked her out of her household.

Maybe it's a girl household thing...I don't know of any of the male households having any such problems.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1408109' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:36 PM']What does that have to do with the issues at hand? These kind of comments just show that you don't understand the issues at all and probably shouldn't be spouting off about it.
I don't think this statement is worth entertaining but just for fun I must ask: what makes you presume that said people do not go to the clinic?
I would probably qualify as a "traddy" by many people's standards and I was one core team for four years and went to the clinic three times a week consistently for two years (and weekly for longer).
In all the years that I was involved in that ministry there is one person who stands out as by far the most dedicated, zealous and hard-core participant in that ministry (his activities went far beyond the campus ministry as well). It just so happens that this fellow is an FSSP seminarian these days. I assume you have some kind of bizarre stereotype in mind such that people who love the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] are presumably less interested in helping others (again, such attitudes are manifestations of the hatred of Catholicism that has infected so many in the Church of the past 40 years). I find it particularly ironic considering that perhaps the greatest concentration of pro-life bumper stickers that I've ever seen is at the parking lot of my TLM parish on Sunday mornings.
I suspect that the students there are manifesting superb obedience. Because of personal experience I am not so optimistic about the intentions of those who call the shots up there when it comes to this subject. There are a great many priests on that campus who I admire and respect greatly, but as far as liturgical sensibilities are concerned there are no doubt some unfortunate biases. The history of the school would seem to afford an explanation of this fact.[/quote]

I went to Clinic Outreach often and I know there were only about 15-20 people there on a good day, maybe 75 on an all-campus outreach. Anyway, I am in no way stating that Trads do not have pro-life convinctions, I am just saying that our energies can be best channeled where they are most needed; praying for the little ones who are scheduled for death. When we reach the gates of Heaven, I doubt Jesus will ask us what language we prayed in, but rather, how much we sacraficed for others.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408119' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:45 PM']I went to Clinic Outreach often and I know there were only about 15-20 people there on a good day, maybe 75 on an all-campus outreach. Anyway, I am in no way stating that Trads do not have pro-life convinctions, I am just saying that our energies can be best channeled where they are most needed; praying for the little ones who are scheduled for death. When we reach the gates of Heaven, I doubt Jesus will ask us what language we prayed in, but rather, how much we sacraficed for others.[/quote]
I don't disagree with such sentiments but I do wonder what exactly it has to do with the issues at hand? I am understanding you as trying to imply something about this discussion by these continual reminders of the value of charitable works.
On a different note it sounds as though the pro-life ministry has declined since I can recall all-campus outreaches with 400 people (at least 100 was typical). Do they still do the all night vigil at the clinic? The old fifth ave clinic opened on Good Friday back in the seventies and we would pray there for 24 hours on that day. I doubt this phat tradition would be dropped just because the clinic moved across town.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I just want to say (about the pro-life outreach) that some people can't do every ministry. I didn't do the pro-life ministry because I'd have to get up too early...and I'm not saying that out of laziness...if I wake up that early, I get very violently ill.

Some people at FUS are a little too serious and scrupulous about prayer and ministry. I was one of the bus leaders for the March for Life last year. I was violently ill, crunched down in the fetal position on my seat, doing all I could not to get very sick all over the bus...I took the mic and announced that I would not be able to lead the rosary due to illness and one young lady made sneered, "can't you just offer it up?" It took all I had not to direct all my sickness at her, lol. I mean, you just can't have attitudes like that...some people would look at you like you were a heretic if you said you didn't like going to FOPs or something.

Anyway, FUS is still a great school. Sometimes you just have to learn to let things roll off your back.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408125' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:52 PM']I just want to say (about the pro-life outreach) that some people can't do every ministry. I didn't do the pro-life ministry because I'd have to get up too early...and I'm not saying that out of laziness...if I wake up that early, I get very violently ill.

Some people at FUS are a little too serious and scrupulous about prayer and ministry. I was one of the bus leaders for the March for Life last year. I was violently ill, crunched down in the fetal position on my seat, doing all I could not to get very sick all over the bus...I took the mic and announced that I would not be able to lead the rosary due to illness and one young lady made sneered, "can't you just offer it up?" It took all I had not to direct all my sickness at her, lol. I mean, you just can't have attitudes like that...some people would look at you like you were a heretic if you said you didn't like going to FOPs or something.

Anyway, FUS is still a great school. Sometimes you just have to learn to let things roll off your back.[/quote]
Another thing is that it can be an extremely disturbing and emotionally charged ministry and I have known people who prayed daily for the pro-life cause but simply could not handle being at the clinic. When I was involved in that ministry we had a prayer side of it which was just as important and was made up of people who did adoration on campus the whole time we were at the clinic (among other things as they saw fit such as daily holy hours and/or rosaries, etc.).

And while I would never seek to minimize the importance of the pro-life cause, there are other causes in the world that many people are no doubt called to focus on.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1408111' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:38 PM']I agree that the Mass is the Mass, and Jesus is still present whether it's the ordinary form, extraordinary form or another Catholic rite.

But Pope John Paul II's document [i]Ecclesia Dei[/i] says that the love and desire for the traditional expression of the Mass is a "legitimate aspiration." He didn't say, "if you don't like the Novus Ordo, just offer it up," he affirmed the peoples' desire to celebrate the Mass this way.

Pope Benedict XVI took JPII's statements to the next level and made the Extraordinary form of the Mass even more accessible for everyday Catholics. In his explaination letter to the Bishops, he emphasized that while the new Mass is good, the old Mass was never abrogated. Yes, it is a blessing that we have the Mass, no matter what it is. Not everyone like the Extraordinary Form. But I think it's sad that a good Catholic university like Steubenville wouldn't want to give its students the chance to experience both the ordinary and extraordinary forms of the Roman Rite on campus, especially since the University makes room for Eastern Catholic divine liturgies from time to time. It makes it really hard for freshmen and students who don't have cars to experience all the Church has to offer.

Charity is of utmost importance when dealing with matters of liturgical differences, and the Church would be a better place if we all took to heart the following statement of the Holy Father:[/quote]

I agree that it would be nice if FUS incorporated the Traditional liturgy into their worship schedule somehow (which is a rather packed at the moment, however). We really do not why this has not happened as of yet, much of the discussion thusfar has been gossip or speculation. Perhaps the university could run a shuttle bus to the the Tridentine mass in the meantime, but really, we must remember that the school, is just that, a school, not a Church, parish, or 4 year retreat. People need to assume some resonsiblity for meeting their own spiritual needs/preferences and not place all responsibility on the school. Tolerance of different worship styles, charasmatic, traditional, etc. must also be respected.

Edited October 23, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm not trying to assert anything in particular by saying this but I find it phat that the school that Aloysius attends started having the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] right away.


Btw, I don't think the fact that FUS is a school is a good argument for suggesting that the motu proprio is then somehow irrelevant. On the contrary it seems that as a high profile Catholic school that caters to Catholics of all sorts they should be even more sensitive and diverse when it comes to the experience of Catholic life that they offer. If there really is a double standard when it comes to the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] (something of which I am absolutely convinced) then I think the fact that they are a school is in fact against their favor.

[Deus te Amat]

I'm beginning to think this should be moved to the debate table.

What about the fact that they had a Mass entirely in French for about 15 french language students? Why cant they have a mass in Latin at request of about ten times that number?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1408126' date='Oct 23 2007, 06:54 PM']Another thing is that it can be an extremely disturbing and emotionally charged ministry and I have known people who prayed daily for the pro-life cause but simply could not handle being at the clinic. When I was involved in that ministry we had a prayer side of it which was just as important and was made up of people who did adoration on campus the whole time we were at the clinic (among other things as they saw fit such as daily holy hours and/or rosaries, etc.).

And while I would never seek to minimize the importance of the pro-life cause, there are other causes in the world that many people are no doubt called to focus on.[/quote]


That's true, but I feel the pro-life cause is most urgent at this time. It's been a few years since I graduated but they only had about 15 ppl there on a given Sat. True, there were some ppl who really couldn't go, but I think more could have made the sacrafice and went (at least twice a semester). But anyway, my point is instead of arguing over liturgical issues that I feel are rather petty (FUS masses are wonderful, regardless of style) we could be showing Christ's love and mercy to the world, in a variety of ways. I'm just saying we need to prioritize, if the Tridentine mass in not yet offered at FUS, go ahead and work for it, there is no need to get overly argumentative or divisive.

Edited October 24, 2007 by friendofJPII

[Laudate_Dominum]

Why is it so hard to believe that the higher ups at FUS would resent the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i]? How many charismatic, ad libbing, "spontaneous" type priests dig the TLM? I've never met any.

Having been at FUS for five years I can testify that the Easter Vigil Mass is considered by the powers that be to be the pinnacle of liturgical worship. This is a taste of how it goes down:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naH8r3b7zAg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naH8r3b7zAg[/url]

Without passing any judgments on anyone or anything I simply offer this as factual data which may help some understand why some people in charge over there would resist the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i].

[hyperdulia again]

it has taken days for me to realize that extraordinary form is a reference to the old mass..i'm right, right?