Tlm At Steubenville

[Laudate_Dominum]

On the other hand I don't want to give the impression that I consider this thread to be more than it is. If someone were to decide to close this thread I doubt I would bother to object.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1408713' date='Oct 24 2007, 04:04 PM']I see little need of trying to demonize this discussion or moralize (or demoralize) the participants into silence.[/quote]
i was not trying to do that, but rather i was trying to encourage good discussion instead of gossip and rumor mongering.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1408715' date='Oct 24 2007, 04:05 PM']Sure, and I tend to agree that allowing a discussion to degenerate into venting is not that polite or appropriate. Perhaps we have a different perception of what this entails?[/quote]
most likely

you're phun, L_D!

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1408719' date='Oct 24 2007, 05:10 PM']i was not trying to do that, but rather i was trying to encourage good discussion instead of gossip and rumor mongering.[/quote]
Thank you - an excellent point. I'll admit that I may have dabbled in those things within this thread. Whatever privation has been introduced to this discussion by my posts has been made up for by Al's superb posts (in my opinion). Oh, and I'm not saying this as an excuse but just to express a realization of the beauty of message boards.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1408403' date='Oct 24 2007, 05:55 AM']Gosh, gee really? I don't think I have ever heard you mention this... ever... not once. [/quote]
My comment was not intended as a news flash; instead, it was meant as a statement of fact, because the liturgy at FUS is lousy.

God bless,
Todd

[Thy Geekdom Come]

A close friend of mine at FUS, who is one of the leaders of the facebook group for the TLM on campus, has issued a "press release":

[i]Hello, all!

Since rumors are circulating the Catholic blog scene, I thought I'd just clarify with the actual truth:

The University has decided not to allow the extraordinary form of the Mass here, on the grounds that the motu proprio does not apply to college campuses.

The story that a priest told a student to seek professional counseling for loving the extraordinary form is a BOLDFACED LIE! I don't know who started it, but it makes me terribly upset. Our administration may not agree with us here, but they are certainly not that uncharitable!

Various students are pursuing different paths - writing to Ecclesia Dei, discussing the issue with other priests who offer the extraordinary form, etc. Feel free to discuss these things on the message board.

The University will release a written statement very soon. When I can get my hands on a copy, I will type it up and send it to you all like this.

Don't give up hope! Keep praying! God bless!

-Claire

Addendum: The University will provide transportation to St. Peter's when for their monthly celebration according to the extraordinary form.[/i]

=====================

So there you have it. Apparently no reason to spread any libel or slander about FUS, although the whole "does the motu proprio apply to colleges" issue is still up for debate.

God bless,

Micah

PS-By the way, just to ruffle some feathers and break some stereotypes, [b]this TLM-loving FUS student is also one of the most spiritually charismatic people I know.[/b]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408915' date='Oct 24 2007, 10:27 PM']A close friend of mine at FUS, who is one of the leaders of the facebook group for the TLM on campus, has issued a "press release":

[i]
Addendum: The University will provide transportation to St. Peter's when for their monthly celebration according to the extraordinary form.[/i][/quote]

If the Extraordinary Form were every Sunday at St. Peter's that would be different, but it is apparently only monthly, which I doubt is sufficient for the spiritual needs of the [i]coetus fidelium traditioni liturgicae antecedenti adhaerentium continenter exsistit[/i] (i.e. continuously present group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition.)

Edited October 25, 2007 by StThomasMore

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1408931' date='Oct 24 2007, 11:49 PM']If the Extraordinary Form were every Sunday at St. Peter's that would be different, but it is apparently only monthly, which I doubt is sufficient for the spiritual needs of the [i]coetus fidelium traditioni liturgicae antecedenti adhaerentium continenter exsistit[/i][/quote]
Sometimes you've got to start slow. I don't think once a month is bad considering it's only been a little over a month since the motu proprio took effect.

By the way, St. John Neumann was once the pastor of St. Peter's in Steubenville and it is very well decked out for a TLM, so it should be pretty cool.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408915' date='Oct 25 2007, 12:27 AM']A close friend of mine at FUS, who is one of the leaders of the facebook group for the TLM on campus, has issued a "press release"[/quote]
she's one of my best friends from Jersey! tell her that 'other claire' said hi

people in our community call her 'Claire the Charismatic' and they just call me 'Claire' because I'm the default or something.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1408945' date='Oct 25 2007, 12:09 AM']she's one of my best friends from Jersey! tell her that 'other claire' said hi

people in our community call her 'Claire the Charismatic' and they just call me 'Claire' because I'm the default or something.[/quote]
Yeah, I know...she told me we both knew you. She's one of the coolest people at FUS. I really admire her devotion to Christ and her spirit of joy has been inspiring to me. That and her wardrobe amuses me.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408946' date='Oct 25 2007, 01:12 AM']Yeah, I know...she told me we both knew you. She's one of the coolest people at FUS. I really admire her devotion to Christ and her spirit of joy has been inspiring to me. That and her wardrobe amuses me. [/quote]
and she does give great hugs! And I'm the kind of person who's not really into hugging.

She has a lovely singing voice too. The only not-cool thing about Other Claire is that she's not on phatmass

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408936' date='Oct 24 2007, 10:52 PM']Sometimes you've got to start slow. I don't think once a month is bad considering it's only been a little over a month since the motu proprio took effect.

By the way, St. John Neumann was once the pastor of St. Peter's in Steubenville and it is very well decked out for a TLM, so it should be pretty cool.[/quote]

I don't feel the students have the right to demand the TLM at FUS. It is not like their spiritual needs aren't being met wtih the Novos Ordo. The NO is sufficient. They can politely request TLM on campus, but the univerisity is also within their rights to refuse when perfectly licit, Christ centered liturgies are offered 3 times daily on campus. I feared this would happen...where some would view the TLM as "superior" and thus cause division ---granted some may argue that is more aestetically pleasing , yet there are those of us who feel more comfortable praying in the vernacular, which isn't any less holy.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408951' date='Oct 25 2007, 01:17 AM']I don't feel the students have the right to demand the TLM at FUS. It is not like their spiritual needs aren't being met wtih the Novos Ordo. The NO is sufficient.[/quote]
The NO is sufficient, i.e. Jesus is there in the Eucharist and it's a valid Mass. But sometimes it's hard to gauge the spiritual needs of a community like Steubenville. I can't speak for others' experiences but my own. I believe that the Novus Ordo is valid and it can satisfy my Sunday Obligation. There's nothing wrong with me walking a few blocks to go to a Novus Ordo parish. However, there's a reason why I drive 40 minutes every Sunday to go to the extraordinary Mass. It's not about aesthetics. The church I go to is [b][url="http://www.institute-christ-king.org/WestOrange/index.html"]actually really ugly[/url][/b]. Our organ is a piece of garbage. There is no paid music director, all we have is a group of 5 singers (2 sopranos, 1 alto, 1 tenor, 1 bass). We sing "the good stuff" i.e. Gregorian Chant, polyphony, classic hymns but trust me, you won't be blown away.

However, there's a beautiful Gothic church nearby with a professional-quality choir. They sing "the good stuff" too. In the past, I've been tempted to join their professional-quality choir because I get bored with singing the same stuff every week and it would be nice to work with a music director who will challenge me to learn more material. As nice as it would be to sing beautiful music in a beautiful Church in a 100% reverently celebrated Novus Ordo Mass, there is a reason why I continue to drive 40 minutes to the extraordinary form. There's just something about seeing the priest facing [i]ad orientem[/i] and consecrating the Eucharist in silence that nourishes my soul in a way the Novus Ordo doesn't.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408951' date='Oct 25 2007, 01:17 AM']They can politely request TLM on campus, but the univerisity is also within their rights to refuse when perfectly licit, Christ centered liturgies are offered 3 times daily on campus. I feared this would happen...where some would view the TLM as "superior" and thus cause division ---granted some may argue that is more aestetically pleasing , yet there are those of us who feel more comfortable praying in the vernacular, which isn't any less holy.[/quote]
I don't think one language is more 'holy' than another, per se. An eloquent prayer in English is better than blasphemy in Latin. However, the Church has said in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] that Latin is to have pride of place within the Liturgy.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1408968' date='Oct 24 2007, 11:43 PM']The NO is sufficient, i.e. Jesus is there in the Eucharist and it's a valid Mass. But sometimes it's hard to gauge the spiritual needs of a community like Steubenville. I can't speak for others' experiences but my own. I believe that the Novus Ordo is valid and it can satisfy my Sunday Obligation. There's nothing wrong with me walking a few blocks to go to a Novus Ordo parish. However, there's a reason why I drive 40 minutes every Sunday to go to the extraordinary Mass. It's not about aesthetics. The church I go to is [b][url="http://www.institute-christ-king.org/WestOrange/index.html"]actually really ugly[/url][/b]. Our organ is a piece of garbage. There is no paid music director, all we have is a group of 5 singers (2 sopranos, 1 alto, 1 tenor, 1 bass). We sing "the good stuff" i.e. Gregorian Chant, polyphony, classic hymns but trust me, you won't be blown away.

However, there's a beautiful Gothic church nearby with a professional-quality choir. They sing "the good stuff" too. In the past, I've been tempted to join their professional-quality choir because I get bored with singing the same stuff every week and it would be nice to work with a music director who will challenge me to learn more material. As nice as it would be to sing beautiful music in a beautiful Church in a 100% reverently celebrated Novus Ordo Mass, there is a reason why I continue to drive 40 minutes to the extraordinary form. There's just something about seeing the priest facing [i]ad orientem[/i] and consecrating the Eucharist in silence that nourishes my soul in a way the Novus Ordo doesn't.
I don't think one language is more 'holy' than another, per se. An eloquent prayer in English is better than blasphemy in Latin. However, the Church has said in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] that Latin is to have pride of place within the Liturgy.[/quote]

"A place of pride" does not mean the that entire mass should be in Latin. Latin will always hold a place of pride because it is the official language of our Church. Some Novos Ordo mass include parts in Latin, which I enjoy. Honestly, maybe it is because I have not attended many TLM masses (maybe 7 at most in my lifetime) but I find it easier to pray when I can pray from my heart in English, rather than constantly translate from the missalette and ask myself "what did he just say/do? Usually, at the TLM I will just sit/stand/kneel there but not feel like I a really participating other than being there. I also enjoy hearing and seeing the priest perform the act of consecration, because I feel as tho I am with Jesus at the last supper. But to each is own. What disturbs me the most is to see division arising in the Church over this. Now the few Catholics who embrace all Church teachings are being divided into fracturing camps, when we really need to be united. I'm not sure if having so many liturgical options is a good idea....honestly, even tho I prefer the NO, I'd happily embrace TLM if it would help unifiy our Church.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1408968' date='Oct 24 2007, 11:43 PM']The NO is sufficient, i.e. Jesus is there in the Eucharist and it's a valid Mass. But sometimes it's hard to gauge the spiritual needs of a community like Steubenville. I can't speak for others' experiences but my own. I believe that the Novus Ordo is valid and it can satisfy my Sunday Obligation. There's nothing wrong with me walking a few blocks to go to a Novus Ordo parish. However, there's a reason why I drive 40 minutes every Sunday to go to the extraordinary Mass. It's not about aesthetics. The church I go to is [b][url="http://www.institute-christ-king.org/WestOrange/index.html"]actually really ugly[/url][/b]. Our organ is a piece of garbage. There is no paid music director, all we have is a group of 5 singers (2 sopranos, 1 alto, 1 tenor, 1 bass). We sing "the good stuff" i.e. Gregorian Chant, polyphony, classic hymns but trust me, you won't be blown away.

However, there's a beautiful Gothic church nearby with a professional-quality choir. They sing "the good stuff" too. In the past, I've been tempted to join their professional-quality choir because I get bored with singing the same stuff every week and it would be nice to work with a music director who will challenge me to learn more material. As nice as it would be to sing beautiful music in a beautiful Church in a 100% reverently celebrated Novus Ordo Mass, there is a reason why I continue to drive 40 minutes to the extraordinary form. There's just something about seeing the priest facing [i]ad orientem[/i] and consecrating the Eucharist in silence that nourishes my soul in a way the Novus Ordo doesn't.
I don't think one language is more 'holy' than another, per se. An eloquent prayer in English is better than blasphemy in Latin. However, the Church has said in [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] that Latin is to have pride of place within the Liturgy.[/quote]

"A place of pride" does not mean the that entire mass should be in Latin. Latin will always hold a place of pride because it is the official language of our Church. Some Novos Ordo mass include parts in Latin, which I enjoy. Honestly, maybe it is because I have not attended many TLM masses (maybe 7 at most in my lifetime) but I find it easier to pray when I can pray from my heart in English, rather than constantly translate from the missalette and ask myself "what did he just say/do? Usually, at the TLM I will just sit/stand/kneel there but not feel like I a really participating other than being there. I also enjoy hearing and seeing the priest perform the act of consecration, because I feel as tho I am with Jesus at the last supper. But to each is own. What disturbs me the most is to see division arising in the Church over this. Now the few Catholics who embrace all Church teachings are being divided into fracturing camps, when we really need to be united. I'm not sure if having so many liturgical options is a good idea....honestly, even tho I prefer the NO, I'd happily embrace TLM if it would help unifiy our Church.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1408915' date='Oct 24 2007, 10:27 PM']PS-By the way, just to ruffle some feathers and break some stereotypes, [b]this TLM-loving FUS student is also one of the most spiritually charismatic people I know.[/b][/quote]
LOL! I've met her a few times (I think she's my friend on facebook too), she seems totally awesome.
Charismatic traditionalism is something I fantasize aoubt btw. hehe
Seriously though, when I try to imagine a movement that included the best of the charismatic movement and the best of the traditionalist movement it seems pretty intense.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1409036' date='Oct 25 2007, 09:32 AM']Charismatic traditionalism is something I fantasize aoubt btw. hehe
Seriously though, when I try to imagine a movement that included the best of the charismatic movement and the best of the traditionalist movement it seems pretty intense.[/quote]
when you think about charismatic traditionalism, what does it look like?

Other Claire was telling me about this charismatic parish in Ann Arbor that got permission from their bishop to do a Charismatic Tridentine Mass. I guess it would involve the usage of the Tridentine Rite with praise & worship music and the use of charismatic gifts during the Mass. That idea kind of makes me nervous though. I mean, they have permission from their bishop but it seems wrong.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1408982' date='Oct 25 2007, 02:02 AM']"A place of pride" does not mean the that entire mass should be in Latin. Latin will always hold a place of pride because it is the official language of our Church. Some Novos Ordo mass include parts in Latin, which I enjoy. Honestly, maybe it is because I have not attended many TLM masses (maybe 7 at most in my lifetime) but I find it easier to pray when I can pray from my heart in English, rather than constantly translate from the missalette and ask myself "what did he just say/do? Usually, at the TLM I will just sit/stand/kneel there but not feel like I a really participating other than being there. I also enjoy hearing and seeing the priest perform the act of consecration, because I feel as tho I am with Jesus at the last supper. But to each is own. What disturbs me the most is to see division arising in the Church over this. Now the few Catholics who embrace all Church teachings are being divided into fracturing camps, when we really need to be united. I'm not sure if having so many liturgical options is a good idea....honestly, even tho I prefer the NO, I'd happily embrace TLM if it would help unifiy our Church.[/quote]
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. The ordinary form is a bit more accessible and easier to understand. The first few extraordinary Masses I went to were a bit confusing and I found myself getting lost in the Missal more than once. Eventually I got used to it, because the basic format for the Liturgy of the Word is similar to the ordinary form, except there's 1 less reading and the Gradual & Tract/Alleluia is different from the Responsorial Psalm. The confiteor is a bit different, and they do it a second time after the Agnus Dei, which is weird. That definitely tripped me up more than a few times when I was getting used to the extraordinary Mass. At my parish we mostly sing Latin hymns, but vernacular hymns are allowed during certain parts of the Mass. Also, during a High Mass the readings are chanted in Latin but then read aloud in English, which I think is a good thing even if the Mass lasts an hour and a half.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1409059' date='Oct 25 2007, 08:51 AM']when you think about charismatic traditionalism, what does it look like?

Other Claire was telling me about this charismatic parish in Ann Arbor that got permission from their bishop to do a Charismatic Tridentine Mass. I guess it would involve the usage of the Tridentine Rite with praise & worship music and the use of charismatic gifts during the Mass. That idea kind of makes me nervous though. I mean, they have permission from their bishop but it seems wrong.[/quote]
That's sort of the opposite of what I was thinking of because I don't consider the popular musical genre or the common liturgical abuses to be the best that the charismatic movement has to offer. Hopefully that's not what it will involve at that parish. I see no point in using the missal of 1962 if the intention is to have a vernacular Mass is a contemporary style or whatever. If a parish desires a so-called "traditional" liturgy it should be done in an appropriate way (chant, latin, et cetera). One possible danger within some groups may be the desire for novelty which goes against the solemn dignity of the Mass in my opinion.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1409064' date='Oct 25 2007, 11:02 AM']That's sort of the opposite of what I was thinking of because I don't consider the popular musical genre or the common liturgical abuses to be the best that the charismatic movement has to offer. Hopefully that's not what it will involve at that parish. I see no point in using the missal of 1962 if the intention is to have a vernacular Mass is a contemporary style or whatever. If a parish desires a so-called "traditional" liturgy it should be done in an appropriate way (chant, latin, et cetera). One possible danger within some groups may be the desire for novelty which goes against the solemn dignity of the Mass in my opinion.[/quote]
so then what whould charismatic traditionalism look like?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='photosynthesis' post='1409070' date='Oct 25 2007, 09:24 AM']so then what whould charismatic traditionalism look like?[/quote]


A Charasmatic Tridentine mass is hard to imagine, since the overall tone of a Charasmatic mass is upbeat, and the tone of the Tridentine mass tends to be solemn. I think we are all meant to be "charasmatic" in the sense that I simply define "charasmatic" as "living/praying being united to the Holy Spirit." We can get so caught up in labels. You don't have to be praying in tongues or singing praise and worship songs to be "charasmatic" imo, if you have lunch with the person at work no one likes you are being "charasmatic" because the HS is working through you at the moment. On the other hand, if you are singing praise and worship songs loudly or spouting off prophesies just to get attention you are not being "charasmatic". There is only one Holy Spirit, and He is present at both the NO and TLM. A person who is truely "charasmatic" will appreciate both the NO and TLM as long as the mass is Christ centered. I don't think "Charasmatic" and "traditional" are polar opposites because it is part of our tradition to embrace the charisms and it is part of our charism to embrace tradition.

Edited October 25, 2007 by friendofJPII