Extraordinary Ministers

[Resurrexi]

...

[Nathan]

Yes to all three for me.

[rkwright]

At many of the masses I've been to, communion would simply take too long without any extraordinary ministers. I just want to play some numbers real quick.

In my diocese we have 1.3 million Catholics. We have 393 priests (thats including our bishops) and 373 permanent deacons. Thats 766 people that I would assume you would 'allow' to distribute Holy communion. There are 149 parishes in the diocese, that gives us on average 8725 people per parish (now granted thats an average, one parish I attend only has 300 families in it, the one my grandparents attend had 2,800, the one my friends attend has a little over 7,000). Now it gets a little fishy here, but lets assume 2 priests per parish. I know of many that only have one priest per parish; We could also assume 2 active deacons. Lets assume 4 masses (one Sat. and three Sun.) at each parish, and finally assume everyone shows up... thats a big IF... Lets say on average it takes 3 seconds to distribute the body of Christ to each person, which the two priests would be doing, then the person could receive the blood of Christ from the deacons.

8725 people * 3 seconds each /4 masses /2 priests distributing = seconds it would take /60mins per sec = 54.5 mins of just distributing Holy Communion.

Looking back on it, theres a lot of assumptions made there which would increase that amount (1) there are 2 priests, (2) both priests can be available for all 4 masses (3) there are 2 deacons, both of which are available for all 4 masses (something I think that is almost impossible to find)

One more on the numbers... lets take my grandparents parish, 2870 households, lets assume on average 3 people per household (that seems low, but we'll go with it), 4 masses, one priest, one deacon, 3 seconds to distribute, priest distributes the Body and deacon the Blood...

2870 houses* 3 people per house *3 seconds per person /4 masses /60 seconds per mins = 107 mins to distribute communion, one and half hours.

[Nathan]

Obviously, there are extraordinary cases -- which is why we have Extraordinary Ministers. But all too often I see Extraordinary Ministers at Masses when there need not be, and this is a problem. Canon Law is pretty clear about this point: if there is a genuine need for Extraordinary Ministers, go ahead and have them, but if the job can be done without them and they are used anyway, then this is a liturgical abuse. Parish priests need to make serious and honest judgments about this in each and every case.

[rkwright]

I have some more concrete data to go off of... my parent's parish prints the weekly attendance to each mass

They have 5 masses. The numbers are as follows:
595
643
1215
1042
740

They have two priests at the Church, but they never concelebrate the mass. I don't know if theres a deacon, lets assume one to distribute the Blood of Christ (or the other priest could for that matter).

595 *3 seconds /60 secs. per min = 30 mins
I assume the mass with 643 and 740 would be similar, in the 30-40 min range

1215 *3 /60 = 60.75, one hour to distribute communion
The 1042 mass would be similar

[rkwright]

[quote name='Nathan' post='1431897' date='Dec 9 2007, 01:37 PM']Obviously, there are extraordinary cases -- which is why we have Extraordinary Ministers. But all too often I see Extraordinary Ministers at Masses when there need not be, and this is a problem. Canon Law is pretty clear about this point: if there is a genuine need for Extraordinary Ministers, go ahead and have them, but if the job can be done without them and they are used anyway, then this is a liturgical abuse. Parish priests need to make serious and honest judgments about this in each and every case.[/quote]

I'm not sure why these are so extraordinary cases? I just did three averages, one just based on the average number of people per parish, one based on an average parish (2,800 families), and one based on real numbers from what I would say is an average parish in my parents diocese.

The extraordinary parishes would be those with 7,000 families like my friend's.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1431893' date='Dec 9 2007, 12:22 PM']At many of the masses I've been to, communion would simply take too long without any extraordinary ministers. I just want to play some numbers real quick.

In my diocese we have 1.3 million Catholics. We have 393 priests (thats including our bishops) and 373 permanent deacons. Thats 766 people that I would assume you would 'allow' to distribute Holy communion. There are 149 parishes in the diocese, that gives us on average 8725 people per parish (now granted thats an average, one parish I attend only has 300 families in it, the one my grandparents attend had 2,800, the one my friends attend has a little over 7,000). Now it gets a little fishy here, but lets assume 2 priests per parish. I know of many that only have one priest per parish; We could also assume 2 active deacons. Lets assume 4 masses (one Sat. and three Sun.) at each parish, and finally assume everyone shows up... thats a big IF... Lets say on average it takes 3 seconds to distribute the body of Christ to each person, which the two priests would be doing, then the person could receive the blood of Christ from the deacons.

8725 people * 3 seconds each /4 masses /2 priests distributing = seconds it would take /60mins per sec = 54.5 mins of just distributing Holy Communion.

Looking back on it, theres a lot of assumptions made there which would increase that amount (1) there are 2 priests, (2) both priests can be available for all 4 masses (3) there are 2 deacons, both of which are available for all 4 masses (something I think that is almost impossible to find)

One more on the numbers... lets take my grandparents parish, 2870 households, lets assume on average 3 people per household (that seems low, but we'll go with it), 4 masses, one priest, one deacon, 3 seconds to distribute, priest distributes the Body and deacon the Blood...

2870 houses* 3 people per house *3 seconds per person /4 masses /60 seconds per mins = 107 mins to distribute communion, one and half hours.[/quote]

In instances like this Holy Communion should be distributed only under the species of bread, both parish priests should make it a point to be there to help distribute Holy Communion and more permanent deacons should be ordained. Another way to make the distribution of Communion faster would be to have the communicants kneel at an altar rail so that the priest can go fairly quickly (though not rushed) to each communicant rather than have the communicant walk up at his own pace to the priest.

I would also like to add that reverence to the Blessed Sacrament is much more important than saving time and that regardless of how long Communion would take, it should only be distributed by ordained ministers.

[rkwright]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1431903' date='Dec 9 2007, 01:52 PM']In instances like this Holy Communion should be distributed only under the species of bread, both parish priests should make it a point to be there to help distribute Holy Communion and more permanent deacons should be ordained. Another way to make the distribution of Communion faster would be to have the communicants kneel at an altar rail so that the priest can go fairly quickly (though not rushed) to each communicant rather than have the communicant walk up at his own pace to the priest.

I would also like to add that reverence to the Blessed Sacrament is much more important than saving time and that regardless of how long Communion would take, it should only be distributed by ordained ministers.[/quote]

I find all of what your saying a big stretch in an effort to instill what you hopefully think will turn into reverence to the Blessed Sacrament.

You would want both parish priests to be present at every mass.
More permanent deacons (while were making that demand lets just order more priests also)
Holy Communion only distributed under one species
Install Altar rails at every parish

All of this in order to rid Extraordinary Ministers, which then somehow translates into more reverence. I've seen plenty of people receive the Eucharist from a Priest in the exact same manner they receive it from an Extraordinary minister. If you watch people, they do the exact same thing whether its a Priest or Extraordinary minister giving them communion. It is difficult, dare I say impossible, to determine someone's reverence towards the sacrament based on who they receive it from.

Is the goal here to further reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament, or simply to get rid of Extraordinary Ministers?

[Noel's angel]

Both parish priests? Parishes can't have more than one parish priest, STM. I thought you would have known that...

I think the goal is just to get rid of EMHCs. This discussion has been had many times. My input if always the same. You can't know better than the Pope.

[PapaHilarious]

logging out...

Edited December 9, 2007 by PapaHilarious

[kateri05]

[quote]You would want both parish priests to be present at every mass.[/quote]

just a note, the priest doesn't have to concelebrate to be able to distribute communion. we go to a carmelite parish and at every sunday mass, another priest will come out, vested, during the lamb of god, for the sole purpose of helping to distribute communion and leave afterwards. so if you had 2 priests and 2 deacons, they could do communion for every mass.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1431908' date='Dec 9 2007, 01:19 PM']Is the goal here to further reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament, or simply to get rid of Extraordinary Ministers?[/quote]

The goal is to increase reverence by eliminating Extraordinary Ministers.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1432015' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:50 PM']Both parish priests? Parishes can't have more than one parish priest, STM. I thought you would have known that...

I think the goal is just to get rid of EMHCs. This discussion has been had many times. My input if always the same. You can't know better than the Pope.[/quote]

Across the pond, most parishes have more than one priest (at least in my diocese) usually termed pastor and assistant pastor.

And do you think the Pope thinks that Extraordinary Ministers should be used frequently? Why don't you read some of the things he's written on the liturgy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote]Do you think, in general, that it is liturgically abusive for Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion to be used to assist in the distribution the Blessed Sacrament during nearly every Mass at an average parish church?[/quote]

Of course.


[quote]Do you think that the Pope, Congregation of Divine Worship, or national conferences of bishops should make an official declaration forbidding the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion on a frequent basis?[/quote]

The Pope and CDW have already said this and the USCCB does not exist to undermine the teachings and disciplines of the Church so the lack of clarity in their documents does not change the fact that the practice is an abuse.


[quote]Do you think if Extraordinary Minsiters were very infrequently or almost never used, there would be an increase of belief in the Real Presence and reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament?[/quote]

If the common practice actually conformed with the legislation on the matter (both the letter and spirit) I suppose it would be a good step towards right worship. The bigger problem is that the very concept of liturgy has been quite emptied and impoverished in modern times (to say nothing of Catholic faith in general). I must admit that perhaps most of the novus ordo parishes that I've happened upon in this country have left me scandalized. What is required is more than merely a more strict enforcement of liturgical law; although this would most certainly be a good thing imho.

What makes you ask these questions STM?

[Noel's angel]

STM, our parish has 3 priests. One parish priest and 2 curates. You claimed, possibly through simple misuse of the English language, that there are 2 parish priests in a parish.

Ha!! You're telling me to read the Pope's writings on the Liturgy. Funny.
I never said that he wants EMHCs used more frequently. I just said that whatever is okay with the Pope is okay with me, and if that includes the use of EHMCs on certain occasions, then I (or anyone for that matter) should not go about saying that it shouldn't be done.