Extraordinary Ministers

[jeffpugh]

Not bad... people will still defend the "Need" for extraordinary ministers. Maybe eligible Catholic men should go to become deacons... we need those. I hope to do that someday if I'm not called to be a priest.

[Oik]

[quote]Sometimes I have to watch for the right moment to make a tongue-in-cheek comment. Otherwise, it can be hazardous.[/quote]

Sometimes, the worst action is the one not taken and the most damaaging words are those not spoken.

[Oik]

[quote]I hope to do that someday if I'm not called to be a priest.[/quote]

Just remember that clergy is clergy. If God calls you to be a deacon, and not a priest, that calling to the diaconate is not a 'default' calling.

[jeffpugh]

Whoa, thanks for pointing that one out, Oik.

[Laudate_Dominum]

If people (pastors and parishes) wanted to do the novus ordo properly, or the best way, based on the actual norms of the Church, they would basically forget about EMs, versus populum, Eucharistic prayers II-IV, pure vernacular, altar girls, et cetera (none of which is supposed to be the normative experience of Catholics), and implement authentic sacred music to top it off (basically the example that the Pope has been working to set with his own Masses). This is the conclusion I've reached thus far from studying the conciliar and post-conciliar documents as a whole. The cheap fads, rooted in dissent, that have dominated the mainstream liturgical climate of recent decades serve to discredit and falsify the actual liturgical renewal that the Council called for.

[MissyP89]

Not sure if I ever posted here...

I don't like EMs, generally. My parish may need one or two for the Saturday Vigil I attend, but not the six to eight we use. That's just excessive, and can be distracting for me, when i'm in prayer and ten people are wandering up to the altar.

Honestly, I don't like to receive from them, either. I receive by mouth for practical and physical reasons, and I'm not always sure if people wash their hands. One EM we have, I'm 90% certain she's a smoker because I smelled it on her hands. That was the last time I've received from an EM. Ick.

No offense to those of you who are EMs, of course! It's a wonderful service to the Church, and I know the pham wouldn't be careless like those I mentioned above. I just prefer receiving from my priests or deacons.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1454554' date='Feb 2 2008, 12:08 PM']I don't like EMs, generally. My parish may need one or two for the Saturday Vigil I attend, but not the six to eight we use. That's just excessive[/quote]

you want excessive? try around 20 EMoHCs marching up to the altar...

ah - so glad i switched parishes - four EMoHCs assisting one priest and one deacon doesn't bother me.

Edited February 12, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[jeffpugh]

wow... 20... I couldn't imagine!

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Redemptionis Sacramentum [/b](Friday, March 19, 2004) [[i]Excerpts[/i]]
[b]146[/b]. [u]There can be no substitute whatsoever for the ministerial Priesthood[/u]. For if a Priest is lacking in the community, then the community lacks the exercise and sacramental function of Christ the Head and Shepherd, which belongs to the essence of its very life. [b][u]For “the only minister who can confect the sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”[/u][/b].

[b]151[/b]. [b][u]Only out of true necessity is there to be recourse to the assistance of extraordinary ministers in the celebration of the Liturgy[/u][/b]. [b]Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather, [u]by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional[/u][/b]. [u]Furthermore, when recourse is had out of necessity to the functions of extraordinary ministers, special urgent prayers of intercession should be multiplied that the Lord may soon send a Priest for the service of the community and raise up an abundance of vocations to sacred Order[/u]s.

[b]154[/b]. As has already been recalled, “[b]the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest[/b]”. [b][u]Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone[/u][/b]. [b]Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the [u]ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon[/u], [u]to whom it belongs therefore to administer Holy Communion to the lay members of Christ’s faithful during the celebration of Mass[/u][/b]. In [u]this way their ministerial office in the Church is fully and accurately brought to light, and the sign value of the Sacrament is made complete[/u].

[b]156[/b]. [b][u]This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion[/u][/b], and not “[i]special minister of Holy Communion[/i]” nor “[i]extraordinary minister of the Eucharist[/i]” nor “[i]special minister of the Eucharist[/i]”, by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.

[b]157[/b]. [u]If there is usually present a sufficient number of sacred ministers for the distribution of Holy Communion, [b]extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion may not be appointed[/b][/u]. [b]Indeed, in such circumstances, [u]those who may have already been appointed to this ministry should not exercise it[/u][/b]. The practice of those Priests is reprobated who, even though present at the celebration, abstain from distributing Communion and hand this function over to laypersons.

[b]158[/b]. [b]Indeed, the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion may administer Communion [u]only when the Priest and Deacon are lacking[/u][/b], when the Priest is prevented by weakness or advanced age or some other genuine reason, [i]or when the number of faithful coming to Communion is so great that the very celebration of Mass would be unduly prolonged[/i]. [b]This, however, is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.[/b]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...amentum_en.html[/url][/quote]After reading these excerpts from “Redemptionis Sacramentum” from the Congregation for Divine Worship, the implications to what is written to me personally seem rather strong...

Edited February 28, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Laudate_Dominum]

Nice post! Thanks for putting in the effort on this and providing solid documentation! Just what this thread needed in my opinion.

[Slappo]

Just remember that as some were pointing out earlier... an hour and a half for communion is not "a brief prolongation" and would be reason for having EMoHC's.

Also, it is up to the pastor I think, until the Church officially comes out with something on this, as to whether or not EMoHC's should be used to distribute the Precious Blood when there is a lack of ordinary ministers. Yes they are extraordinary, but at the same time, the norm is for both the Precious Body and Precious Blood to be distributed at mass, and distribution of the Precious Blood is encouraged. So it is really either break one ordinary, or another ordinary.

Yes altar rails are an option, but that means no distribution of the Precious Blood. Intinction is an option, but not the ordinary means of distribution. Yes we need more deacons, but that doesn't mean random men stepping up, it means men called by God to step up to the vocation they are called to. We ought to pray for a greater calling of men to the Deaconate.

As for number 3 on which will show a greater reverence for the Eucharist, start with removing the dispensation for reception on the hands. Also bring back altar boys with patens under our chins when we receive Holy Communion so that there are not particles of the Precious Body falling on the floor and then being stepped on. Bring back a silent canon where the priest is clearly praying to God and not the people. Let priests increase in holiness that they might celebrate mass with more reverence making sure to always bow to the altar whenever passing by it, and genuflecting to the tabernacle outside of the liturgy. Priests that bow during the consecration and elevate the host afterwards with great reverence and love. Bring back homilies on the true presence, mortal sin, the need for confession, the proper state for reception of the Eucharist. Priests that will rise up in the altar boys serving at mass a desire for Holy Orders.

It starts with the priests, but when the priests need help, it falls onto the prayers of the laity that God might rise up in dioceses good and holy priests to serve the faithful throughout the world.

How many people here offer daily rosaries for increase in vocations, for good and holy priests? How many hours are spent kneeling in front of the tabernacle or a monstrance earnestly praying for an increase in vocations to the religious life? How many novena's have we offered up as lay members of Christ's faithful Church for the sanctity of our priest's and bishops? How often do we fast a month, a week, for the sake of our clergy?

I have one answer to all of these questions: Not enough, and I'm just as at fault as the rest of us all.

Notice how NOTHING I said had to do with contacting anyone other than God. It starts and ends with prayer.

[Oik]

[quote]Just remember that as some were pointing out earlier... an hour and a half for communion is not "a brief prolongation" and would be reason for having EMoHC's.[/quote]

The best solution is to treat the root of this problem.

[quote]Also, it is up to the pastor I think, until the Church officially comes out with something on this, as to whether or not EMoHC's should be used to distribute the Precious Blood when there is a lack of ordinary ministers. Yes they are extraordinary, but at the same time, the norm is for both the Precious Body and Precious Blood to be distributed at mass, and distribution of the Precious Blood is encouraged. So it is really either break one ordinary, or another ordinary.[/quote]

In the Eastern Catholic Churches, we give Communion with both the Precious Blood and Sacred Body. We do not have EMoHC's.

[quote]Yes altar rails are an option, but that means no distribution of the Precious Blood. Intinction is an option, but not the ordinary means of distribution. Yes we need more deacons, but that doesn't mean random men stepping up, it means men called by God to step up to the vocation they are called to. We ought to pray for a greater calling of men to the Deaconate.[/quote]

Intinction is the norm of the Eastern Catholic Churches. You cannot recieve another way really.
The idea that "random men stepping up" is a silly assessment. The random men are those men who are steeping up to be EMoHC. Deacons mujst go through seven years of training/classes and a formal Ordaination by the Bishop. Hardly "random men".

[quote]As for number 3 on which will show a greater reverence for the Eucharist, start with removing the dispensation for reception on the hands.[/quote]

No azrgument. In the Melkite Church you cannot recieve Holy Communion in your hand.

[quote]Also bring back altar boys with patens under our chins when we receive Holy Communion so that there are not particles of the Precious Body falling on the floor and then being stepped on.[/quote]
Eh, I understand this, but acolytes should be used instead. Altar boys are usually really goofy (except in the Extraordinary Form) and do not have minor orders.

[quote]Bring back a silent canon where the priest is clearly praying to God and not the people.[/quote]
IN the Melkite Church, we hear the entire Anaphora and I actually prefer this to a silent one.

[quote]Let priests increase in holiness that they might celebrate mass with more reverence making sure to always bow to the altar whenever passing by it, and genuflecting to the tabernacle outside of the liturgy. Priests that bow during the consecration and elevate the host afterwards with great reverence and love. Bring back homilies on the true presence, mortal sin, the need for confession, the proper state for reception of the Eucharist. Priests that will rise up in the altar boys serving at mass a desire for Holy Orders.[/quote]
Excellent points!

[quote]It starts with the priests, but when the priests need help, it falls onto the prayers of the laity that God might rise up in dioceses good and holy priests to serve the faithful throughout the world.

How many people here offer daily rosaries for increase in vocations, for good and holy priests? How many hours are spent kneeling in front of the tabernacle or a monstrance earnestly praying for an increase in vocations to the religious life? How many novena's have we offered up as lay members of Christ's faithful Church for the sanctity of our priest's and bishops? How often do we fast a month, a week, for the sake of our clergy?

I have one answer to all of these questions: Not enough, and I'm just as at fault as the rest of us all.

Notice how NOTHING I said had to do with contacting anyone other than God. It starts and ends with prayer.[/quote]

Good points.

[Mr.Cat]

Just as a personal note the document “Redemptionis Sacramentum” from the Congregation for Divine Worship seems to focus on the phrase “[b][u]unduly prolonged[/u][/b]” when considering the use of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. Then it goes to state, “is to be understood in such a way that a brief prolongation, considering the circumstances and culture of the place, is not at all a sufficient reason.”

“[u]Brief prolongation[/u]” seemingly needs to be taken in the context that they are suggested that [b]“circumstances and culture” is not a sufficient reason[/b]. In some nations, as African or Asian Missionaries have told us in their sermons, the Holy Mass takes two to three hours. That if they shorten the Holy Mass that the people feel cheated and the Mass rushed. I seriously doubt that waiting thirty minutes or even an hour for Holy Communion in light of this passage in “Redemptionis Sacramentum” would qualify as unduly prolonging.

I have witnessed a “[i]Anglican Usage Parish[/i]” (With good attendance.) and Priest administer Holy Communion himself without any assistance, even with a knee problem, and while it took a little longer than other Parishes it most certainly was not unduly prolonged. One problem that has erupted is that some Catholic faithful want the Holy Mass to be quick as possible, so they can “go home”. Some Catholics generally speaking have witnessed the Holy Mass in their lives become a hassle and burden, thus some are no longer willing to wait patiently. This is a serious problem and this problem thay may impel people, possibly even Priests, to speed up the Holy Mass to satisfy this problem. This however does not necessarily solve this particular problem mentioned of impatience.

The problem is one of ignorance, apathy, culture, and heresy in some cases. More predominately ignorance and lack of good spirituality, some Catholics who have some understanding of their faith never learned (or possibly desired) to practice their faith. So, I suppose, when asking Catholics who suffer from these problems to wait for the Holy Mass, [i]no[/i][i]t necessarily by fault of their own[/i], we hit a problem.

While “Redemptionis Sacramentum” is a wonderful document is seemingly has not been implemented in most places, since some of its directives are rather clear and pointed.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[jeffpugh]

Btw, in Catholic tradition, only the priest can intinct. I've seen lay men and women do it before and it makes me shudder...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1471846' date='Mar 1 2008, 05:52 PM']I have witnessed a “[i]Anglican Usage Parish[/i]” (With good attendance.) and Priest administer Holy Communion himself without any assistance, even with a knee problem, and while it took a little longer than other Parishes it most certainly was not unduly prolonged. One problem that has erupted is that some Catholic faithful want the Holy Mass to be quick as possible, so they can “go home”. Some Catholics generally speaking have witnessed the Holy Mass in their lives become a hassle and burden, thus some are no longer willing to wait patiently. This is a serious problem and this problem thay may impel people, possibly even Priests, to speed up the Holy Mass to satisfy this problem. This however does not necessarily solve this particular problem mentioned of impatience.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. It's actually the only complaint I have against my current parish, that I don't think we need 5 EMHCs per Mass (it's a small parish). We could get by with 1 or 2, max. Mass rarely takes an entire hour, and I've heard people complain when it goes over at all. Guess I'm not used to that, as Mass at my old parish was 1.5 hours on average. I don't mind Communion taking longer. In fact, I like it when it does, as it gives more time to truly reflect, and to prepare myself for receiving the Eucharist.