bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1912834' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:26 PM']Why should it be considered immoral to be anti social and harmful, as long as you're happy?[/quote] If it harms others then it's considered by the group to be immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1913206' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:50 PM']If it harms others then it's considered by the group to be immoral.[/quote] By the group. Not by you. It's all relative. What happens when you have two competing groups? Who is right? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/skillet/track/rebirthing"]Skillet - Rebirthing[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1912840' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:32 PM']So who decides what qualifies and what doesn't? Lot of room for interpretation.[/quote] Society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1913216' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:55 PM']Society.[/quote] So 1930s Germany was right.... ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/party+ben+-+green+day+vs.+oasis+vs.+travis+vs.+eminem+%26+aerosmith/track/boulevard+of+broken+songs"]Party Ben - Green Day vs. Oasis vs. Travis vs. Eminem & Aerosmith - Boulevard Of Broken Songs[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1913211' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:52 PM']By the group. Not by you. It's all relative. [/quote] Nope. There's the law and accepted social standards which determine whether behaviour is morally good or bad, and is superior to any individual interpretation. [quote]What happens when you have two competing groups? Who is right? [/quote] You would have to look at what laws were broken and then there might a higher reference group such as the UN to arbitrate on such matters. It's not always black and white. Both groups may feel the enemy is acting immorally, and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1913218' date='Jul 6 2009, 10:55 PM']So 1930s Germany was right....[/quote] The world is a far more powerful authority than 1930's Germany, and the world has determined 1930's Germany was immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1913268' date='Jul 7 2009, 12:27 AM']Nope. There's the law and accepted social standards which determine whether behaviour is morally good or bad, and is superior to any individual interpretation.[/quote] Who decides that? What's accepted social standards? A while back, it was okay to beat an African American for running away. Was that okay back then? [quote]You would have to look at what laws were broken and then there might a higher reference group such as the UN to arbitrate on such matters. It's not always black and white. Both groups may feel the enemy is acting immorally, and vice versa.[/quote] Might be a higher reference group? Who determines when it's time to go to this supposed higher reference point? What about the Jim Crow laws? Who does the UN answer to? If both sides feel the other side is immoral, who is immoral then? [quote name='bonkers' post='1913273' date='Jul 7 2009, 12:30 AM']The world is a far more powerful authority than 1930's Germany, and the world has determined 1930's Germany was immoral.[/quote] So popular opinion determines what is right. Basically, the stronger army is the moral side.......right? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/red+hot+chili+peppers/track/slow+cheetah"]Red Hot Chili Peppers - Slow Cheetah[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' post='1913144' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:54 PM']That would be a no, then. But the extra information doesn't hurt.[/quote] Why? Assuming we humans are agents of free will we have the choice to act pro-socially (good) or anti-socially (bad). Good and bad still exist but they come from society not from god, and they can change over time and evolve, and differ from culture to culture. Good is still good but it's not the make-believe good with eternal rewards and pleasing to god the religious would have you believe. If anything, it's a better kind of good because you're choosing to act good for the sake of good rather than out of scoring brownie points with JC. Edited July 7, 2009 by bonkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1913286' date='Jul 6 2009, 11:44 PM']Who decides that? What's accepted social standards? A while back, it was okay to beat an African American for running away. Was that okay back then?[/quote] Our understanding of morality and ethics has evovled. Previously it might have been OK to take black people as slaves and beat them for running away, but then again previously it might have been ok to take multiple wives and burn heretics at the stake. Our current society has decided the actions of previous generations were unjust and immoral and therefore has determiend to become more civilised and fair. In a hundred years from now, society then might look back on our generation and think of us and uncivilised and backward too, and the same thing will happen to their generation. [quote]Might be a higher reference group? Who determines when it's time to go to this supposed higher reference point? What about the Jim Crow laws? Who does the UN answer to? If both sides feel the other side is immoral, who is immoral then?[/quote] The UN might answer to the people, billions of them if they decide the UN is wrong. If both sides feel the other side is immoral, it might be that both sides are immoral or neither side is immoral, or there is a lack of trust or breakdown in communication or too much history and enmity to resolve things. It's just not black and white. That's why the UN is useful to arbitrate on such matters, because it is a trusted and repsected authority. That doesn't make it perfect, but neither is our systems of ethics. [quote]So popular opinion determines what is right. Basically, the stronger army is the moral side.......right?[/quote] It is not so much that popular opinion determines what is right but that it is incidental to what is right. It is universlaly understood and agreed that invading and stealing others people's lands is immoral and this is ingrained in our conscience, just like other things like murder, theft and rape. It is not so much there is power in numbers but in the collective conscience of the entire world that gives the world a moral authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I met a girl at this one vocation retreat last May and she was a convert from atheism. She confessed that when she was an atheist that she was suicidal because if there was no God then what was the point of even existing? Life had no purpose to it and there was nothing to hope for in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='tinytherese' post='1913322' date='Jul 7 2009, 02:38 AM']I met a girl at this one vocation retreat last May and she was a convert from atheism. She confessed that when she was an atheist that she was suicidal because if there was no God then what was the point of even existing? Life had no purpose to it and there was nothing to hope for in the future.[/quote] Awww poor girl. I personally don't see how replacing reality with fantasy and false hope improves life. I don't know too many people who have killed themselves because of atheism, and I think this would be extremely rare. Normally the weak one's convert to some mainsteam religion or join an obscure cult to give their life meaning before killing themselves. It all depends on your perspective of things. If you think being atheist means there's no point to existence and nothing to hope for of course you're going to be depressed and miserable. But if you're like me you realise this life is the only one we have and we have to make the most of it and we're completely in control of our own destiny (some of the time) then it can be an empowering experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1913326' date='Jul 7 2009, 10:02 AM']and we're completely in control of our own destiny (some of the time)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I'm more of a Stalin person than a Hitler one. Stalin killed more people, and got away with it. I have also often wondered why atheists don't kill themselves, or just go completely anti-social with their behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1913505' date='Jul 7 2009, 09:52 AM']I have also often wondered why atheists don't kill themselves, or just go completely anti-social with their behavior.[/quote] They have pills for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1913561' date='Jul 7 2009, 11:36 AM']They have pills for that.[/quote] Yep, and I'm taking one of the new ones that isn't even on insurance yet. Bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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