Hassan Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916177' date='Jul 9 2009, 08:40 PM']Your still using words that by your theology are make believe. Your definition is your subjective opinion. You want to reject the Christian God, but hold on to Christian Morality, like many atheist today who are not true to their beliefs.[/quote] There are some positive aspects of Christians morals which may well lead to a more peaceful world if followed. There are also negative aspects of Christian ethics. I think obviously Bonkers is not trying to hold on too all of Christian morality, that is quite obvious, but does wish to retain what he believes to be the socially beneficial aspects of it. I don't know if this will work but let's be clear that your claim is only partly true. [quote]Like many atheist you ask a very good question or dance around it anyway. If God exist why does He allow evil? Well if there is no God there is no evil you must come to grasp with this part of your theology if you are to be a true atheist.[/quote] That's just semantics. Taking the Christians metaphysical assertions into account and examining the state of the world we find a number of facts which seem incompatible with the assertion that the world is under the watchful eye of a benevolent all powerful being. That is essentially the claim. I don't think it's a particularly good argument but your objection is just a matter of semantics. [quote]As for the answer to your question, one can not vandalize their own property. This is how God does not murder. Also the people that God destroyed or had destroyed where the wicked.[/quote] Yeah, those Canaanite children were some really bad dudes. The livestock as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1916327' date='Jul 9 2009, 11:40 PM']There are some positive aspects of Christians morals which may well lead to a more peaceful world if followed. There are also negative aspects of Christian ethics. I think obviously Bonkers is not trying to hold on too all of Christian morality, that is quite obvious, but does wish to retain what he believes to be the socially beneficial aspects of it. I don't know if this will work but let's be clear that your claim is only partly true.[/quote] It is completely true, the problem is that atheists and their sympathizers don't like it. True Atheistic Theology places such understandings such as Good and Evil in the land of make believe. Evils such as murder would be nothing more than one animal terminating the biological functions of another animal. Without God there is no good or evil, right or wrong, true atheists, that is atheists that fully embrace atheistic theology understand this realization. "Atheist" such as Bonkers want to play both sides and cherry pick Christian Morality when it suites them but reject the God which is the foundation of that morality. [quote name='Hassan' post='1916327' date='Jul 9 2009, 11:40 PM']Yeah, those Canaanite children were some really bad dudes. The livestock as well.[/quote] God is the author of life. One can not vandalize ones own property. The twist is without the existence of God, the deaths of these children or anyone is neither good or bad. Edited July 10, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916361' date='Jul 10 2009, 12:07 AM']It is completely true, the problem is that atheists and their sympathizers don't like it. True Atheistic Theology places such understandings such as Good and Evil in the land of make believe. Evils such as murder would be nothing more than one animal terminating the biological functions of another animal.[/quote] At one point you claim this is true, but atheists don't like it, later you claim true atheists in fact do full embrace an amoral universe. You can't make that sort of general claim and expect it to be true. Nietzsche, Sartre, Foucault, Chomsky et cetera and other major atheistic thinkers would certainly not fall under your generalizations. [quote]Without God there is no good or evil, right or wrong, true atheist, that is atheist that fully embrace atheistic theology understand this realization. "Atheist" such as Bonkers want to play both sides and cherry pick Christian Morality when it suites them but reject the God which is the foundation of that morality.[/quote] [quote]God is the author of life. One can not vandalize ones own property. The twist is without the existence of God, the deaths of these children or anyone is neither good or bad.[/quote] It may not be bad in the ultimate sense you are talking about. It is certainly savage and utterly contrary to what most people would ascribe to a ultimately good being. If Melisovic publically gave the orders ascribed to your God he war crimes trial would have been over in a day and we'd call him a monster. You yourself don't seem to deny the orders are contrary to any sense of proportional justice or simple decency, you simply try to play a tautology. And to a degree your tautology is justified. If You're God exists and he is morally perfect then for any action 'x' 'x' is morally justified. If you define morality with your God's will then by definition everything he orders is moral. But is speaking to someone outside your religious universe this not going to go far. Most people looking at the apparent morally depraved actions ordered by Yahwah in certian parts of the OT would be unable to assent that they are morally unassailable and won't cede the requisite antecedent. Which is why I feel this is a useless argument for atheists and Christians to argue over. You all are working on two very different moral planes. Now the death of children can be bad in a godless universe, just not in the sense of a violation of a transcendent moral law. It is subjective, but so is your moral law. You simply move the subjectivity one step back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 My phatmass time for today has come to a end. I will get back to you tomorrow. The fact remains without the existence of God, good and evil, right and wrong do not truly exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1915490' date='Jul 9 2009, 10:30 AM']may Allah do the same to you.[/quote] thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916395' date='Jul 10 2009, 01:34 AM']My phatmass time for today has come to a end. I will get back to you tomorrow. The fact remains without the existence of God, good and evil, right and wrong do not truly exist.[/quote] are you saying that something can only be good because God loves it? i believe that the proper view is that God loves things because they are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916177' date='Jul 9 2009, 07:40 PM']Your still using words that by your theology are make believe. Your definition is your subjective opinion. You want to reject the Christian God, but hold on to Christian Morality, like many atheist today who are not true to their beliefs.[/quote] Why Christian morality and not Buddhist or Hindu morality? What makes you think you have a monopoly on words like good, evil and morality? All these things have existed in all cultures well before the invention of Christianity. It's not like they popped out of thin air and all of a sudden people had to stop killing and stealing from each other, human morality had been evolving for thousands of year prior to christ. Not sure what you mean by "not holding true to my atheist beliefs" as the only thing all atheists have in common is a lack of belief in god, and that is all that is required to be an atheist. [quote]Like many atheist you ask a very good question or dance around it anyway. If God exist why does He allow evil? Well if there is no God there is no evil you must come to grasp with this part of your theology if you are to be a true atheist.[/quote] Like I said chrisitnaity doens't have a monopoly on the word "evil" and how it should be defined. I don't have any problem with exchanging it with another word like "badness" or "naughtiness" to avoid the confusion, but evil does seem appropriate given these days it means more than satan doing his dirty work. [quote]As for the answer to your question, one can not vandalize their own property. This is how God does not murder. Also the people that God destroyed or had destroyed where the wicked.[/quote] He should destroy himself then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916361' date='Jul 10 2009, 01:07 AM']"Atheist" such as Bonkers want to play both sides and cherry pick Christian Morality when it suites them but reject the God which is the foundation of that morality.[/quote] I think this is where we misunderstand each other. You think god is the foundation of morality, whereas I think survival and evolutionary development is the foundation of morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1916382' date='Jul 10 2009, 01:27 AM']At one point you claim this is true, but atheists don't like it, later you claim true atheists in fact do full embrace an amoral universe. You can't make that sort of general claim and expect it to be true. Nietzsche, Sartre, Foucault, Chomsky et cetera and other major atheistic thinkers would certainly not fall under your generalizations.[/quote] Atheists who are not true to their theology don't like it. Atheists like Richard Dawkins do understand that without God "life has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good..." Any atheists who tries to argue morality, good, evil, is something more than just their opinion is not true to the theology they claim to hold. [quote name='Hassan' post='1916382' date='Jul 10 2009, 01:27 AM']It may not be bad in the ultimate sense you are talking about. It is certainly savage and utterly contrary to what most people would ascribe to a ultimately good being. If Melisovic publically gave the orders ascribed to your God he war crimes trial would have been over in a day and we'd call him a monster. You yourself don't seem to deny the orders are contrary to any sense of proportional justice or simple decency, you simply try to play a tautology. And to a degree your tautology is justified. If You're God exists and he is morally perfect then for any action 'x' 'x' is morally justified. If you define morality with your God's will then by definition everything he orders is moral. But is speaking to someone outside your religious universe this not going to go far. Most people looking at the apparent morally depraved actions ordered by Yahwah in certian parts of the OT would be unable to assent that they are morally unassailable and won't cede the requisite antecedent. Which is why I feel this is a useless argument for atheists and Christians to argue over. You all are working on two very different moral planes. Now the death of children can be bad in a godless universe, just not in the sense of a violation of a transcendent moral law. It is subjective, but so is your moral law. You simply move the subjectivity one step back.[/quote] My point of argument is not that God exist or does not. But only the would be reality if God does not exist. Atheist or those that claim to be atheist must come to grasp that morality, good and evil, right and wrong do not exist if God does not exist. Any atheist that says otherwise is only stating their subjective opinion, and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='bonkers' post='1916529' date='Jul 10 2009, 04:45 AM']I think this is where we misunderstand each other. You think god is the foundation of morality, whereas I think survival and evolutionary development is the foundation of morality.[/quote] Your opinion is noted. Unfortunately morality does not exist in your theology. In your theology God is made up concept just as morality is a made up concept to explain nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916910' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:13 PM']Atheists who are not true to their theology don't like it. Atheists like Richard Dawkins do understand that without God "life has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good..."[/quote] if an atheist recognizes God then they are not an atheist. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916910' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:13 PM']My point of argument is not that God exist or does not. But only the would be reality if God does not exist. Atheist or those that claim to be atheist must come to grasp that morality, good and evil, right and wrong do not exist if God does not exist. Any atheist that says otherwise is only stating their subjective opinion, and nothing more.[/quote] if all of morality relies on God then all of morality is subjective to his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='heavenseeker' post='1916920' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:38 PM']if an atheist recognizes God then they are not an atheist.[/quote] Most people who call themselves atheist do recognize God even though the strongly deny it. Any atheist that believes in right and wrong, good and evil, or morality, is being contradictory. All those ideals are built into faith, or better stated built from faith, whatever faith, Christianity or any others. [quote name='heavenseeker' post='1916920' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:38 PM']if all of morality relies on God then all of morality is subjective to his will.[/quote] God's supreme authority objectively defines morality. Without God we are left with the made up, mere subjective opinions of man. Edited July 10, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916924' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:48 PM']Most people who call themselves atheist do recognize God even though the strongly deny it. Any atheist that believes in right and wrong, good and evil, or morality, is being contradictory. All those ideals are built into faith, or better stated built from faith, whatever faith, Christianity or any others.[/quote] that sounds more like agnostic not atheist [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916924' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:48 PM']God's supreme authority objectively defines morality. Without God we are left with the made up, mere subjective opinions of man.[/quote] beg to differ. the existence of good and evil relies on God, but what makes something good or evil does not because God would not make something evil he only allows it to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 [quote name='heavenseeker' post='1916933' date='Jul 10 2009, 07:02 PM']that sounds more like agnostic not atheist beg to differ. the existence of good and evil relies on God, but what makes something good or evil does not because God would not make something evil he only allows it to exist.[/quote] Yes, and I never stated that God makes evil. Only that His objective authority defines what is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenseeker Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1916938' date='Jul 10 2009, 08:05 PM']Yes, and I never stated that God makes evil. Only that His objective authority defines what is evil.[/quote] but are you saying that things are good or evil because God says they are, or that God recognizes thins as they are be it good or evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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