Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1914313' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:30 AM']Maybe it's just me but this isn't making much sense.[/quote] In other words, what do our customs have to do with the way we celebrate Mass? We are not celebrating someone from our culture, rather we are celebrating Christ, who reigns in Heaven. My point is simply: what makes it ok to change the liturgy (which has been handed down for generation from our forefathers of the faith) to fit what goes along with the societal norms? It would be greatly frowned upon if we went to another country and tried to force our traditions on them (bowing instead of kneeling, eg), so why, then, is it ok to change the liturgy, which has been used in tradition for generations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1914313' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:30 PM']Maybe it's just me but this isn't making much sense.[/quote] If we can't adapt to local customs how does one come to grips with the fact that the Mass HAS changed over time? Back in 35AD they weren't standing for the Gospel reading, etc. The Church allows for certain changes, why must we be more rigid than She is? This is why people go into schism, the flock thinking they know better than the shepherds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914319' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:35 AM']My point is simply: what makes it ok to change the liturgy (which has been handed down for generation from our forefathers of the faith) to fit what goes along with the societal norms?[/quote] Frankly, I don't understand why you continue to ask this question after it has been addressed [i]several[/i] times in this thread. It is OK to change the liturgical norms for a number of reasons: If the bishop decides it should be so, if the priest decides it should be so, if the individual decides for reasons of health, too many people, etc. Read the following from the [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c"]GIRM[/url] No. 43: [quote]In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, [i]except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. [/i]The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei [b]unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[/b]53 [b]With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/b][/quote] It is clear (to me, at least) that here [i]obedience to your bishop, priest, deacon, or lay minister[/i] is what is important -- MORE important than your physical posture. I would absolutely love it if you would provide some sort of support for your position that is anything other than your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914325' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:55 AM']It is clear (to me, at least) that here [i]obedience to your bishop, priest, deacon, or lay minister[/i] is what is important -- MORE important than your physical posture. I would absolutely love it if you would provide some sort of support for your position that is anything other than your opinion.[/quote] <---- me not holding my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914325' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:55 AM']Frankly, I don't understand why you continue to ask this question after it has been addressed [i]several[/i] times in this thread. It is OK to change the liturgical norms for a number of reasons: If the bishop decides it should be so, if the priest decides it should be so, if the individual decides for reasons of health, too many people, etc. Read the following from the [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c"]GIRM[/url] No. 43: [quote]In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, [i]except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. [/i]The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei [b]unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[/b]53 [b]With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/b][/quote] It is clear (to me, at least) that here [i]obedience to your bishop, priest, deacon, or lay minister[/i] is what is important -- MORE important than your physical posture. I would absolutely love it if you would provide some sort of support for your position that is anything other than your opinion.[/quote] Thank you for having the patience I do not. [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1914328' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:59 AM'] <---- me not holding my breath.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1914331' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:03 AM']Thank you for having the patience I do not. [/quote] It does test my patience, I must say, to have someone be so willfully ignorant on such a simple matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914335' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:08 AM']It does test my patience, I must say, to have someone be so willfully ignorant on such a simple matter.[/quote] Believe me, I understand. I was ready to toss in the towel after that last bit. I'm so glad we have someone around these days who is not so quick to dismiss ignorance but who will stick it out in the name of all that is good and holy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1914337' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:12 AM']Believe me, I understand. I was ready to toss in the towel after that last bit. I'm so glad we have someone around these days who is not so quick to dismiss ignorance but who will stick it out in the name of all that is good and holy.[/quote] We all struggle with blind spots in one place or another in our lives. My husband is pretty patient with mine, so I guess I've picked up some tips from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914319' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:35 AM']In other words, what do our customs have to do with the way we celebrate Mass? We are not celebrating someone from our culture, rather we are celebrating Christ, who reigns in Heaven. My point is simply: what makes it ok to change the liturgy (which has been handed down for generation from our forefathers of the faith) to fit what goes along with the societal norms? It would be greatly frowned upon if we went to another country and tried to force our traditions on them (bowing instead of kneeling, eg), so why, then, is it ok to change the liturgy, which has been used in tradition for generations?[/quote] I believe someone pointed out earlier that many of the postures during Mass, including kneeling during the Consecration, have not always been the norm from the beginning or for many generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 I think it's okay to ask why and even disagree. Just because something can change doesn't mean it should. I personally disagree with the Pope about Communion in the hand. And I think there should be a uniform rule directing people to kneel, if they can, at the consecration. It shouldn't be left to the individual Bishops. That's my opinion. Of course, my Bishop wants people to stand, so I stand. That's his right under the current rules. I think they should change that rule though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1914382' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:39 PM']I think it's okay to ask why and even disagree. Just because something can change doesn't mean it should. I personally disagree with the Pope about Communion in the hand. And I think there should be a uniform rule directing people to kneel, if they can, at the consecration. It shouldn't be left to the individual Bishops. That's my opinion. Of course, my Bishop wants people to stand, so I stand. That's his right under the current rules. I think they should change that rule though.[/quote] I agree that it's fine to ask why and disagree (in some situations), but to accuse fellow parishioners as well as bishops and priests of being irreverent because they stand or set the norm in their parishes or dioceses as standing during consecration is entirely inappropriate, particularly when such an opinion is contrary to stated Church teaching and Tradition. And, I think we need to remember that we need to have a very good reason to disagree with even teachings such as those about the physical postures we are to assume -- at the very least, these would be due external assent and obedience. A great article on the levels of magisterial teaching is [url="http://brotherandre.stblogs.com/2007/11/10/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching/"]here.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 How the judgments flow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914325' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:55 AM']It is clear (to me, at least) that here [i]obedience to your bishop, priest, deacon, or lay minister[/i] is what is important -- MORE important than your physical posture. I would absolutely love it if you would provide some sort of support for your position that is anything other than your opinion.[/quote]+J.M.J.+ i agree with being obedient to your bishop and/or your priest. not being obedient to a deacon or lay minister though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 8, 2009 Share Posted July 8, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1914408' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:22 PM']+J.M.J.+ i agree with being obedient to your bishop and/or your priest. not being obedient to a deacon or lay minister though. [/quote] Well, [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914325' date='Jul 8 2009, 09:55 AM']Read the following from the [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c"]GIRM[/url] No. 43: [quote]With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, [b]the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest[/b] gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/quote] [/quote] I am not making this stuff up. I provided the link and everything. If you disagree, please provide some other source that is more authoritative than the GIRM on the subject of kneeling during consecration. I'm totally open to correction. [quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914406' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:19 PM']How the judgments flow.... [/quote] I've tried very hard not to be judgmental here. I apologize if you've felt attacked. That has not been my intent. As things stand, you have yet to provide any support for your opinions. Part of being Catholic is taking the time to properly form your conscience and your intellect. If you've got something that supports your opinion I am more than willing to change my tune. At this point, though, you have provided no substantive arguments or sources that would substantiate your assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Bro. Adam Posted July 8, 2009 Author Share Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) This is what Catholics United for the Faith have written about the postures during Mass. [url="http://www.cuf.org/FaithFacts/details_view.asp?ffID=253"]Postures During Mass[/url] Notice the reasons given for standing instead of kneeling. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/STAND.TXT"]An excerpt from an article written from EWTN:[/url] [quote]From <The Feast of Faith>, Approaches to a Theology of the Liturgy, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Ignatius Press, 1986): ....My second observation concerns the significance of gestures. Standing, kneeling, sitting, bowing, beating one's breast, the sign of the cross - all these have an irreplaceable anthropological significance as the way the Spirit is expressed in the body. J. Pieper has shown convincingly that such gestures bring together the "outside" and the "inside" in a reciprocal relationship which is equally important for both. Here I would like to refer to the gesture which is central to worship, and one which is threatening to disappear, namely the practice of kneeling. We know that the Lord knelt to pray (Lk 22:41), that Stephen (Acts 7:60), Peter (Acts 9:40), and Paul (Acts 20:36) did so too. The hymn to Christ in Philippians 2:6- 11 speaks of the cosmic liturgy as a bending of the knee at the name of Jesus, seeing in it a fulfillment of the Isaian prophecy (Is 45:23) of the sovereignty of the God of Israel. In bending the knee at the name of Jesus, the Church is acting in all truth; she is entering into the cosmic gesture, paying homage to the Victor and thereby going over to the Victor's side. For in bending the knee we signify that we are imitating and adopting the attitude of him who, though he was "in the form of God", yet "humbled himself unto death". In this way, by combining the prophetic word of the Old Covenant and the manner of life of Jesus Christ, the Letter to the Philippians has taken up the sign of kneeling, which it regards as the appropriate posture for Christians to adopt at the name of Jesus, and has given it a cosmic significance in salvation history. Here, the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ: words could not replace such a confession. ..[/quote] Edited July 8, 2009 by Mrs. Bro. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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