zunshynn Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948276' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:12 PM']And yet again, you neglect the other side of the argument which is that they aren't persons yet. I know you disagree, but its no wonder why no one wants to debate with anti-abortion folks.[/quote] OK. Go find a science book. Any regular old science book that talks about human development. It will tell you that at the moment sperm and egg unite, a distinct organism is formed, with DNA distinct from both it's mother and father. It starts growing immediately. (You might also look up the scientific definition of "life"... if it's by anyone who knows anything, it will say something about growth... It has all of the cells, in microscopic form, from that moment, that it will have when it is 1 year old, 20 years old, and 50 years old. Now... why do you argue that this organism is not a person? I mean seriously... I don't even see what's up for debate. Being Catholic makes me understand the value of life, whether immediately after conception, or 40 years after conception, but to know that life begins at conception, it's quite sufficient to just be open to scientific fact... that does not require faith at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948293' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:28 PM']PS "Many" Jewish people don't have a problem with the comparison of both holocaust.[/quote] You'd be the first person I'd come to in order to find that out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='zunshynn' post='1948295' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:30 PM']OK. Go find a science book. Any regular old science book that talks about human development. It will tell you that at the moment sperm and egg unite, a distinct organism is formed, with DNA distinct from both it's mother and father. It starts growing immediately. (You might also look up the scientific definition of "life"... if it's by anyone who knows anything, it will say something about growth... It has all of the cells, in microscopic form, from that moment, that it will have when it is 1 year old, 20 years old, and 50 years old. Now... why do you argue that this organism is not a person? I mean seriously... I don't even see what's up for debate. Being Catholic makes me understand the value of life, whether immediately after conception, or 40 years after conception, but to know that life begins at conception, it's quite sufficient to just be open to scientific fact... that does not require faith at all.[/quote] This has been hashed out many times already. Being a human and being a person are not the same thing. Personhood doesn't rely on form. You believe humans are persons because God instills a soul. I believe a human is a person when they are born. It's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948289' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:26 PM']Unfortunately, it doesn't. You can offend me, but I can't offend you, or else, I'm not allowed to speak.[/quote] I was speaking within reason and the standards of the phorum. If you feel the only way to offend us is in a manner which goes beyond those standards....then yes, you cannot offend us. There is no such thing as true free speech. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lord+of+the+rings+3+soundtrack-the+return+of+the+king+(featuring+renee+fleming)/track/the+end+of+all+things+(album+version)"]Lord Of The Rings 3 Soundtrack-The Return Of The King (Featuring Renee Fleming) - The End Of All Things (Album Version)[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948296' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:31 PM']You'd be the first person I'd come to in order to find that out [/quote] Isn't that special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1948298' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:33 PM']I was speaking within reason and the standards of the phorum. If you feel the only way to offend us is in a manner which goes beyond those standards....then yes, you cannot offend us. There is no such thing as true free speech. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lord+of+the+rings+3+soundtrack-the+return+of+the+king+(featuring+renee+fleming)/track/the+end+of+all+things+(album+version)"]Lord Of The Rings 3 Soundtrack-The Return Of The King (Featuring Renee Fleming) - The End Of All Things (Album Version)[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote] I think scapegoating your cause on to the mass murder of the Jews is beyond reason and the standards of this phorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948276' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:12 PM']And yet again, you neglect the other side of the argument which is that they aren't persons yet. I know you disagree, but its no wonder why no one wants to debate with anti-abortion folks.[/quote] This goes way beyond semantics. It isn't that people don't want to debate with anti-abortion advocates; it's that those who are pro-abortion just don't want them to be right. If life begins with conception, that saddles them with way more responsibility than they care to shoulder. If there is somehow this perceived "grey area" of when life begins, it makes it so much easier to dispose of a pregnancy with little guilt. As far as the Nazi bit...I am as sensitive to Jewish issues as it's possible for a Christian, non-ethnically Jewish person to be. I'm engaged to a Jew of Lebanese extraction. His grandfather fought in Normandy. It irritates me to no end when people drag out the "holocaust card" for their own personal agendas. However, that does not presuppose that it automatically becomes irresponsible to make comparisons in regard to inhuman treatment of the defenseless. The Nazis lived; the holocaust happened; it could very well happen again and, for those of us who regard abortion as a silent holocaust, it happens as we speak. Sound moral comparisons don't have to be exploitative. Now, PETA comparing chicken yards to Auschwitz...now THAT is exploitation. In this country, no one has a "right" to live un-offended. However, with a privately owned phorum based on certain moral principles, the owners do have a right to make certain codes of conduct that they see fit. The right that you have as an American is to participate or not. Still your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948301' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:35 PM']I think scapegoating your cause on to the mass murder of the Jews is beyond reason and the standards of this phorum.[/quote] How? ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lord+of+the+rings+3+soundtrack-the+return+of+the+king+(featuring+sir+james+galway%2c+viggo+mortensen+and+renee+fleming)/track/the+return+of+the+king+(album+version)"]Lord Of The Rings 3 Soundtrack-The Return Of The King (Featuring Sir James Galway, Viggo Mortensen and Renee Fleming) - The Return Of The King (Album Version)[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1948302' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:35 PM']This goes way beyond semantics. It isn't that people don't want to debate with anti-abortion advocates; it's that those who are pro-abortion just don't want them to be right. If life begins with conception, that saddles them with way more responsibility than they care to shoulder. If there is somehow this perceived "grey area" of when life begins, it makes it so much easier to dispose of a pregnancy with little guilt. As far as the Nazi bit...I am as sensitive to Jewish issues as it's possible for a Christian, non-ethnically Jewish person to be. I'm engaged to a Jew of Lebanese extraction. His grandfather fought in Normandy. It irritates me to no end when people drag out the "holocaust card" for their own personal agendas. However, that does not presuppose that it automatically becomes irresponsible to make comparisons in regard to inhuman treatment of the defenseless. The Nazis lived; the holocaust happened; it could very well happen again and, for those of us who regard abortion as a silent holocaust, it happens as we speak. Sound moral comparisons don't have to be exploitative. Now, PETA comparing chicken yards to Auschwitz...now THAT is exploitation. In this country, no one has a "right" to live un-offended. However, with a privately owned phorum based on certain moral principles, the owners do have a right to make certain codes of conduct that they see fit. The right that you have as an American is to participate or not. Still your choice.[/quote] Of course, they don't want you to be right... but you, oh you're completely open to changing your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948305' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:37 PM']Of course, they don't want you to be right... but you, oh you're completely open to changing your mind [/quote] 1. I was once a pro-abortion atheist. So yes, as a matter of fact, I AM open to changing my mind. It's just that you don't like the direction it changed in. 2. Rolling your eyes obviously reinforces the solid intellectual impact of your argument. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1948308' date='Aug 13 2009, 05:40 PM']1. I was once a pro-abortion atheist. So yes, as a matter of fact, I AM open to changing my mind. It's just that you don't like the direction it changed in. 2. Rolling your eyes obviously reinforces the solid intellectual impact of your argument. Bravo.[/quote] 1. I was one an anti-abortion Catholic, so yes, as a matter of fact, I also AM open to changing my mind. 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948301' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:35 PM']I think scapegoating your cause on to the mass murder of the Jews is beyond reason and the standards of this phorum.[/quote] Only because you deny the humanity of the unborn. The Germans commited mass murder and they can be compared to others that commited mass murder. Such as Communist China and Russia who murdered 20 million+ people. If you could see the humanity of the children, if you could see they were children you would not hate the comparison or not as much as you do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948297' date='Aug 13 2009, 08:33 PM']This has been hashed out many times already. Being a human and being a person are not the same thing. Personhood doesn't rely on form. You believe humans are persons because God instills a soul. I believe a human is a person when they are born. It's as simple as that.[/quote] So, I'm curious. What about "being born" makes a human being a person. The fact that they bring air into their lungs? The fact that their bodies are independent of a woman's body? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I find this talk on cd to be interesting. "I Was a Pro-Life Atheist" [url="http://bridegroompress.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=25"]http://bridegroompress.com/zencart/index.p...;products_id=25[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1948309' date='Aug 13 2009, 07:41 PM']1. I was one an anti-abortion Catholic, so yes, as a matter of fact, I also AM open to changing my mind. 2. [/quote] Nice retort. I'm impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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