MissScripture Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I'm just giving some historical perspective, the reality is no one cares about what the Pope or anyone else says for that matter. We're free to do as we please, it's time to celebrate the human body and not veil it up. No, the reality is, that if you're going to make sweeping statements about how women should dress and say that the Church says so, you should back it up with more than a very poorly attributed quote that does not have any sort of context. ;) This is particularly after you've previously insulted women in the thread. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 It's what you get for making Adam eat the apple Maybe Adam should have gotten off his arse and protected Eve from a dragon snake instead of hiding like a doofus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I'm almost certain it's known as "Adam's Sin". This is because Adam was charged with guarding the garden, and he let Satan in, tempt Eve, and then joined in on her sin. We can go with theology, or we can just blame it on Eve. Either or. Where have all my props gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I'm almost certain it's known as "Adam's Sin". This is because Adam was charged with guarding the garden, and he let Satan in, tempt Eve, and then joined in on her sin. We can go with theology, or we can just blame it on Eve. Either or. Yea, go ahead and blame the man for everything! Such a man-hater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToJesusMyHeart Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Standards of Modesty in Dress Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956 "A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper." The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII Sorry ladies... no beach fun for you! If I Google search 'Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII', I don't even get the man's name. All I get is a quotation on modesty, enthusiastically copied and re-copied by groups with names such as 'The League for Modesty in Dress'. No source is ever given. Googling that search term doesn't produce anything else he said or wrote. From this I can conclude one of two things: 1.) The quotation has been misattributed (at best) or fabricated (at worst). 2.) The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII did nothing else whatsoever in his whole life except speak and write about female modesty - in which I case I don't think he is well-balanced enough as a Catholic to be taken seriously. I think it's more likely to be the first one. No, the reality is, that if you're going to make sweeping statements about how women should dress and say that the Church says so, you should back it up with more than a very poorly attributed quote that does not have any sort of context. ;) This is particularly after you've previously insulted women in the thread. ;) A PAPAL DECREE CONCERNING MODESTY HIS HOLINESS POPE PIUS XI 12 January 1930: http://www.olvrc.com/documents/Modesty.Pius.XI.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted April 9, 2013 Author Share Posted April 9, 2013 THERE ARE NO SET STANDARDS FOR MODESTY IN CATHOLIC TRADITION. I read that there are... ? Yes, Our Lady prophesied, and we've seen some of the fads and fashions that have come and gone and continue. There are certain fashions that greatly offend God. And it is our responsibility not to take part in sinful fashions. It is our responsibility to dress modestly, not only for our chastity but for others'. This is nothing new, its' been a teaching of the Church for two millenia... With that said... I think what good catholic people get bent out of shape about, is they don't want to feel guilt if they like to wear something that makes them look cute. Or, since they are swimming after all, why do they have to cover up so much? It takes a balanced approach. You don't have to wear a mattress cover at the beach. Its not your fault if you show a little skin and some pervert looks at you and sins. It doesn't take much for someone who has sexual problems to sin. They can see a woman all covered up and sin... that's not the woman's fault (or the man's fault, there are women perverts after all.) And not all people who struggle with chastity at the beach are perverts either. I'm not saying that. I just think those of us who do struggle when they go to the beach and see members of the opposite sex in their swimming clothes, we have to do something about that ourselves. I don't blame the men for wearing what they wear to the beach... Modesty just takes practical common sense... I see what you are saying.. I just think that sometimes people do struggle not because they are perverts but because of concupiscence, when others show a lot of skin. I think it's good to minimize that :) I think that's just mostly what I'm trying to explain, maybe doing a poor job :) there are certain standards of modesty that i read about (from Catholic sources) that I've accepted for myself, I can't really enforce them or others or anything, but personally I tend to like them :) The other night, on Twitter, I mentioned the medical treatment that I'm having on my feet and I got a sexual message from a foot fetishist asking to see the photos. I am not taking responsibility for causing him to sin just because I happened to mention my feet on Twitter. (Even though, now I look at them more closely, the toes on my left foot especially are seriously hot.) Saying that we 'present temptations' to guys makes it sound as though we are walking around the beach with one of those giant hostess trolleys and handing out temptations like ice creams. Guys might find a lot of stuff sexually arousing - and it is not our responsibility to become telepathic and try to preempt that. (It's also an impossibility. Once I heard a secular guy in Israel saying that he is attracted to the orthodox Jewish girls because their clothing makes them 'more tempting to uncover and conquer'. Eugh.) Personally I think asking yourself 'What will a guy think of this?' is a really unhelpful question to ask yourself when you're choosing your clothes. There is actually a similarity between dressing to seduce a guy and dressing to try and prevent them from having erotic thoughts about you - you are putting men at the centre of your reasoning, and they do not belong there. That place is reserved for God. It doesn't always occur to people, teenage girls especially, but a hyper-focus on modesty can be just as objectifying to women as showing off as much flesh as possible without getting arrested under the public decency laws. For instance, in your current modesty thread in VS, we have people talking about the gratitude they have received from male friends now that their shoulders are covered up. To be perfectly honest, if any guy friend of mine started thanking me for my covered shoulders I would conclude that the most Christian thing I could do for him would be to tell him that he needs to get a hobby. Urgently. Modesty is first and foremost an attitude of the heart. I have noticed that many Catholic women (again, particularly teenagers and young women) go through a phase where it is all about the hemlines and the clothes shopping and the chapel veils. That is normal. But it also doesn't go deep enough. I love open-water swimming, and when I go to the lake or the sea, I think about enjoying the water and God's creation. I choose swimwear based on what is practical for long-distance swimming, not based on what a guy may or may not think of my legs. It is my hope that other people would have the same focus when they go to enjoy a day at the beach. It is not a sign of purity in heart if you are thinking about sex and sexuality all the time - and that's essentially what we are doing if we spend ages obsessing about how people might react to us in our swimwear. It's the opposite. I do see what you mean... I don't know, I'm trying to figure this out. I think one of the things I tried explaining (again, probably poorly :)) is that it's good to dress in a way where normal guys won't get tempted. If someone is tempted by people's feet, that is not a norm. But I think that most are tempted by let's say - low cut tops. So it would be an act of charity for me to not wear low cut tops.. just do what is reasonable, I guess. If people are looking for temptation, that's not our fault, if we don't do anything. If however they are looking to be chaste, and we do contribute, that's very unfortunate. Regarding what you said about really strict views on modesty objectifying women or making everything sexual.. I'm not really sure if that's the case.. i mean, if we thought that showing wrists is sexual, that would would inserting sex into everything. But if something is approximate to the bikini areas, - traditionally it has been understood that it's not something to show in public. That's why I mentioned upper thighs. :) again I don't want to argue or try to enforce my standard on others, but it's just how I've come to understood it. I don't think that everything is sexual... but I do think that concupiscence is real, and it seems that guys are visual. When women wear something immodest in church, even I get distracted, not in a sexual way but just distracted from prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tufsoles Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 :o so you're a relative-ist?! :o so shocking! I just use common sense when it comes to clothing and modesty. I cover the shoulders and have dress or shorts that hit the knees at work or church. and what Fran's pic of her swimsuit is what I might wear at the beach or the pool. No scandal here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToJesusMyHeart Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I read that there are... ? A PAPAL DECREE CONCERNING MODESTY HIS HOLINESS POPE PIUS XI 12 January 1930: http://www.olvrc.com...sty.Pius.XI.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 A PAPAL DECREE CONCERNING MODESTY HIS HOLINESS POPE PIUS XI 12 January 1930: http://www.olvrc.com...sty.Pius.XI.pdf I can only seem to find reference to that document on websites promoting it as standards for modesty. I am unable to find any reference to it elsewhere or in any other language (since if it is legitimate, I doubt it was originally in English). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carmenchristi Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Standards of Modesty in Dress Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956 "A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper." The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII Sorry ladies... no beach fun for you! In catholic school it was 4 fingers, and the skirt had to touch the floor when you were kneeling. And there were no sleeve rules as long as you had some sort of sleeves..... At dances you had to "leave room for The Holy Spirit" between you when dancing. I don't have a document name, but I'm pretty sure this rule was ex Cathedra. ;) whose Cathedra I don't really know.... But anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 And neither do I. Modesty at church or work is different from modesty at the beach. Alot of modesty is situational. How does one be modest at a nude beach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted April 9, 2013 Author Share Posted April 9, 2013 I can only seem to find reference to that document on websites promoting it as standards for modesty. I am unable to find any reference to it elsewhere or in any other language (since if it is legitimate, I doubt it was originally in English). Maybe it's not being discussed anywhere else and that is why? Just a thought :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Frannie answered that back on page 5. So as long as one does not have shame, he/she is modest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 So as long as one does not have shame, he/she is modest? In our culture, shame is highly under-rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tufsoles Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 How does one be modest at a nude beach? Why would anyone go to a nudist beach besides a small subculture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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