Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[beatitude]

I don't really think calling Saint Padre Pio a jerk especially to women is fair. This implies misogyny, which is obviously bad and a very big claim on a Saint. He certainly wasn't free from sin, but he is an outstanding Saint, and before we throw his image in the fire perhaps we should hold back judgement on him. He had modesty rules. So does the Vatican. The Vatican has quite strict modesty rules, in fact. If you try to go in and you don't fulfill the requirements, the Swiss Guard will tell you to take a hike and buy a skirt. I don't think he really had rules for men because men didn't really wear immodest clothing at the time (That I know of).

 
You talk about misogyny as though it's a rare thing. It's extremely common. Trying to make out that it's rare and the preserve only of horrible people makes it that much harder to deal with. Nice guys fall into it too. Even saints. See my earlier point about St Augustine, who was far worse than Padre Pio - unless you don't consider it misogynistic to claim that women aren't made in God's image?
 
No one is suggesting that we throw Padre Pio's image in the fire. He's still a saint. But here he was wrong and he said and did things that were hurtful.
 
Having a dress code in place for the Vatican is not the same as denying someone access to a sacrament. The Vatican's situation is also slightly different in that many people go there just as tourists, and they also need to be told not to use flash photography or to be bellowing into their mobile phones. There have to be some rules in place to help people understand that this is not just any tourist attraction. Those rules are also not specific to women - and they aren't all that strict. Nor are they particularly precise. No one goes on about fingers' widths from the throat, for example.
 
There is also a right way and a wrong way to implement a dress code. At the Taize community, for example, they respectfully ask that no one come in to prayers with bare shoulders - and they provide baskets of cotton strips at all the entrances to the church, so that people who don't happen to be wearing the right kind of shirt don't need to go away again. You just take a piece of cotton and wrap it round your shoulders. That is a sensitive way to do it. No one is going to feel judged by that.
 
Men's clothing never ever has been scrutinised in the same way that women's has and this is why you don't hear of men being chastised for immodest dress in Padre Pio's day. It wasn't that all men dressed perfectly until 1968.

[Basilisa Marie]

I don't really think calling Saint Padre Pio a jerk especially to women is fair. This implies misogyny, which is obviously bad and a very big claim on a Saint. He certainly wasn't free from sin, but he is an outstanding Saint, and before we throw his image in the fire perhaps we should hold back judgement on him. He had modesty rules. So does the Vatican. The Vatican has quite strict modesty rules, in fact. If you try to go in and you don't fulfill the requirements, the Swiss Guard will tell you to take a hike and buy a skirt. I don't think he really had rules for men because men didn't really wear immodest clothing at the time (That I know of).

 

Yeah, it's a claim I'm making.  :)  You don't have to run around killing women and thinking they're the same as animals to be a misogynist.  I'm not throwing him in the fire, either.  It's just as bad to throw away a great saint because he had flaws as it is to ignore all the flaws he had.  Like Beatitude said, the modesty rules at the Vatican are different, it's a different situation.  I find it ESPECIALLY problematic (and ironic) that St.Pio would deny women the sacrament concerned with contrition and forgiveness of sin because he made a judgment about their personal conviction based solely on their clothing...And this is coming from a guy who supposedly could READ SOULS.  WHY bother with judging a woman's contrition based solely on her skirt length (or wearing a skirt at all) when you HAVE THE ABILITY to see what their true state of contrition is?  

 

If he had made all the men come to confession wearing a button down shirt and tie, then I wouldn't have as big of a problem with it, because THEN it would be clear he's trying to foster a respect for the sacrament in all people.  

[Papist]

:hijack:

 

Good confession requires contrition and the intent to not repeat the confessed sin(s). I can't read anyone's heart/souls, but Saint Padre Pio had this mystical gift. If Saint Padre Pio was a jerk, I do not know, but I would have to consider this.

[dominicansoul]

:hijack:

 

Good confession requires contrition and the intent to not repeat the confessed sin(s). I can't read anyone's heart/souls, but Saint Padre Pio had this mystical gift. If Saint Padre Pio was a jerk, I do not know, but I would have to consider this.

 

 

not to mention he had to have physical fights with satan almost every nite...if that doesn't put you in a bad mood, nothing will....

[beatitude]

:hijack:

 

Good confession requires contrition and the intent to not repeat the confessed sin(s). I can't read anyone's heart/souls, but Saint Padre Pio had this mystical gift.

 

There is no record of Padre Pio turning anyone away from confession except women who weren't dressed according to his standard.

 

By this logic, everyone else whose confession he ever heard (and he heard thousands) must have had a spirit of contrition - except these trollops. Who all just happened to be female.

 

Our souls are sacred and only God ever knows them fully. He's the only one who can; He made them. No matter what mystical insight and wisdom Padre Pio might have had, he could not know people 'through and through', as is said in Psalm 139. I believe that Padre Pio 'read souls', but I also think that his cult has attracted many superstitious anecdotes (some of the unverified stories told about him make it sound like a low budget movie with a telepathic main character) that don't really illustrate what is meant by that term. And to give him credit, he himself never claimed that he could know the quality of a person's repentance.

[PhuturePriest]

There is no record of Padre Pio turning anyone away from confession except women who weren't dressed according to his standard.

 

By this logic, everyone else whose confession he ever heard (and he heard thousands) must have had a spirit of contrition - except these trollops. Who all just happened to be female.

 

Our souls are sacred and only God ever knows them fully. He's the only one who can; He made them. No matter what mystical insight and wisdom Padre Pio might have had, he could not know people 'through and through', as is said in Psalm 139. I believe that Padre Pio 'read souls', but I also think that his cult has attracted many superstitious anecdotes (some of the unverified stories told about him make it sound like a low budget movie with a telepathic main character) that don't really illustrate what is meant by that term. And to give him credit, he himself never claimed that he could know the quality of a person's repentance.

 

He turned away people that were not penitent. This did include men.

[EmilyAnn]

He turned away people that were not penitent. This did include men.

And women who wear skirts less than eight inches below the knee are automatically not penitent?

[beatitude]

He turned away people that were not penitent. This did include men.

 

There are a couple stories of him refusing to grant absolution to men who had lied about their sins during the confession. I have not come across any story in which he refused to let a man even make a confession in the first place.

[beatitude]

Hmm, reading more about Padre Pio, it seems he also regarded dancing as an invitation to sin and one penitent had to pledge never to go to a dance again before receiving absolution.

 

This may not be true. All saints build up a collection of stories around them that can't be verified. If it's not true, this is proof that we mustn't accept just any anecdote about a saint in support of our own pet beliefs. If it is true - I am sorry, but saint or no saint, he was wrong. I am taking St Teresa of Avila's side on this one, she who leaped onto a table at recreation and cried out to her austere-living nuns, "Sisters! Let us dance for joy in the Lord!" before leading them all in the flamenco.

Edited April 9, 2013 by beatitude

[MarysLittleFlower]

Don't trust blindly.

 

I don't think that trusting that something is from the Church, is trusting blindly :) I mean, I have no reason to think that it's not.

 

I wouldn't trust our culture though, or society, or the society's standards. :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

I have managed to a source for the letter, but not the Cardinal Vicar's supposed standards. You can see here on pages 26-28 (it's in Latin, I haven't managed to find it in English). But the title does not mention "Papal Decree" at all as some sources state, it appears to be a letter. And the letter mentions no specific standards for dress. 

 

 

As for the supposed standards, I have found two different dates being references, one to 1930 and another to 1956. Mentioned in said different dates and then the Cardinal Vicar to Pius XI and the Cardinal Vicar to Pius XII. So I remain sceptical. 

thanks for the research :) maybe it's one of those, who knows. It might take a lot of research to find out.

 

 My problem with this is that there is an implicit understanding in this that if someone does not conform to the standards that you prescribe to, then they are not 'Mary-like' and are failing in some way. Is the Blessed Mother unhappy with women who do not wear skirts down to the floor? "Maybe that's just something to think about" again implies that you are right and others just need to think about it and see that. When I go to Mass in a skirt that reaches just below my knees, are Jesus and Mary unhappy with my dress?

 

If those are your personal standards then fine, that's your choice. But I reject the implication that women who do not are not living up to this supposed "Mary-like" standard and are falling into societal traps of thinking. Quoting a bunch of things the Church and saints said about modesty is all good and well, but we are held to the virtue of modesty, not the specific length of our skirts.

EmilyAnn, I didn't mean to hurt anyone in what I said. I was just saying my opinion, and the standards that I'm trying to follow, but I tried backing them up somehow. Like I said, I can't judge people's hearts. I can't judge a girl, if her skirt is above her knees. But do I like skirts above the knees? Personally I do not. I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone.

 

St. Pio may be a saint but he sounds like he was also a real jerk, to women especially.

 

 

That's because he WAS a total jerk especially to women.  Where were the special guidelines for men in line for confession? No button down shirt and tie? 

 

Saint =/= free from sin or imperfections or other privations of virtue. 

 

I'm really sad that St Padre Pio is talked about in this way. He's one of my favourite Saints. No, he wasn't a "jerk". He said that it hurts him to be more firm with people sometimes but he only does it in charity to help them repent,  and it's not like anyone could do this. St Padre Pio could do this and it worked.God helped him see what to do for each particular case and he could read souls. So many repented because of how he spoke to them. Other times, he was very gentle. I find it a lack of research to say that he was a "jerk" cause he talked firmly to some people - if you look up more of his writings and what he said, you'll see a quote that it hurt him to tell people to leave without absolution, etc, but he had to do this to help them repent... and they came back. If you see the movie "Padre Pio Miracle Man" from Ignatius Press: see how he treats the woman who had an affair (the actress Lea Padovani :)) - she came back and repented and asked to be his spiritual daughter. I think he's an awesome Saint and he's helped me a lot.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hmm, reading more about Padre Pio, it seems he also regarded dancing as an invitation to sin and one penitent had to pledge never to go to a dance again before receiving absolution.

 

This may not be true. All saints build up a collection of stories around them that can't be verified. If it's not true, this is proof that we mustn't accept just any anecdote about a saint in support of our own pet beliefs. If it is true - I am sorry, but saint or no saint, he was wrong. I am taking St Teresa of Avila's side on this one, she who leaped onto a table at recreation and cried out to her austere-living nuns, "Sisters! Let us dance for joy in the Lord!" before leading them all in the flamenco.

St Teresa was dancing for joy, she didn't attend discos.

 

St John Vianney was also against dances because they can invite sin.

[the171]

I attend dances all the time. I love dancing. ('cause baby these hips don't lie)

[Papist]

But they really know how to strength the truth :)

[Lil Red]

 I think he's an amesome Saint and he's helped me a lot.

 

that's awesome that he helps you, and you feel a connection with him. I don't, and I don't have to have a connection with him. I'm not saying that the Church made a mistake in making him a saint, just that from many accounts that I've read of him, he acted like a jerk, especially to women. I won't apologize for my impressions.