Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[MarysLittleFlower]

 
I agree with everything else you've written, but I just want to add something about the part I've put in bold.
 
It is not a sin to feel physically attracted to somebody. Nobody has failed the modesty test if they get asked out on a date.
 
I think sometimes people forget this, and this is why I dislike modesty advice that makes it sound as though female desire doesn't exist (where are all the threads on 'Joseph-like' modesty?) and that male desire is some primitive force that needs to be contained with the aid of Victorian-style crinolines (which I am sure Mary would not be wearing). It's not like this. Desire happens naturally. It's part of who we are. It's also not just about body parts - which should make sense, because sexuality itself is about far more than body parts. I knew one guy who told me that he sometimes found debating with women to be quite hot. The intellectual challenge attracted him and it had nothing to do with what a woman might be wearing. It isn't sinful to feel these attractions and it isn't possible to make them go away anyhow. They just happen. It's how you treat your thoughts that matters - if you fantasise about a person and basically turn them into a lump of meat, that is the sin. You lose focus on who they are and turn them into something quite different, which is not respectful and goes against our understanding of human dignity. But it does take some conscious effort to do this, which is why a lustful person could go on sinning even if the object of his/her passion was wearing a floor-length cardboard box with holes cut out for eyes.
 
MarysLittleFlower, from some of what you've written, I get the impression that you are confusing attraction with lust. You are writing a lot about modesty lately, and I feel that as you come to feel more at home in both faith and sexuality, you won't feel the need to think about this topic quite so much. Take care to avoid becoming preoccupied with any one aspect of your religious observance. It's important to have a balanced faith.
 
Also, bear in mind that not even saints are right on everything all of the time. ;) St Thomas Aquinas might think that 'unadorned' women are less likely to attract interest, but somehow I don't think the average twenty-first century man translates 'no jewellery' as 'unavailable'.

 

I don't think about modesty all the time :) I agree it's important for our faith to be balanced, and I'm still trying to figure that out in various ways.  I just posted the thread and then noticed this one cause I was looking through open mic. I know there's a difference between attraction and lust, I was talking about lust, except when I mentioned adornment (or in general: accessorizing). In some cases, women might want to not adorn themselves. But with swimsuits etc, I was talking about lust.

[the171]

I don't think the problem right now is a reverse objectification of women, but a demonizing of men that makes them out to be these pigs who can't control their desires.

[Lil Red]

I don't think the problem right now is a reverse objectification of women, but a demonizing of men that makes them out to be these pigs who can't control their desires.

Good point.

[Slappo]

For me, the difference between me calling a saint a jerk and getting after people who "question" some of what the pope does is that I'm not insinuating that the saint isn't a saint because of what he did.  I know he's a saint.  It's no different than people criticizing Mother Theresa for maybe not helping the poor in ways that people thought she should have.  That's fine to hold that opinion, but no one isn't saying she's not a saint because of it.  You can criticize someone without denying them their place in the Church.  

No one is denying that the Pope is the Pope by not wearing a mozetta either, so I don't see how you can separate the two as you tried to.

 

Using your last statement I could say "You can criticize the magisterium/your local ordinary/the Holy Father/your local priest without denying them their place in the Church"

[Slappo]

The problem is when men throughout history have "not had complete insight on the goodness of women", women have suffered badly for it and still do.

And yes I have heard irl, people use St. Pio's and St. Augustine's opinions as a means to put down women and be misogynistic. That has colored my perception of both of them.

Note that I never doubted or denied that either men shouldn't be saints of the Church.

Someone using quotes from a saint to hold a mysoginistic woman hating attitude is much much different than saying that the saint himself was a mysoginist.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I have a difficult time understanding how St Padre Pio turning immodesty dressed women away from Confession is "hatred" or misogyny when you consider this quote that I tried posting:

 

"Don't you know," he asked, "what pain it costs me to shut the door on anyone?  The Lord has forced me to do so.  I do not call anyone, nor do I refuse anyone either.  There is someone else who calls and refuses them.  I am His useless tool."

 

He was just trying to help the women.

 

What if clothes in our age are immodest. Why are we jumping to conclusions about St Padre Pio, and not our culture?
 

Edited April 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don't think the problem right now is a reverse objectification of women, but a demonizing of men that makes them out to be these pigs who can't control their desires.

everyone has free will, but people have weaknesses and concupiscence too. I'm not blaming women for men's choices. I just think that women should not present temptation to men. Just like men should not present temptation to women. It's just a loving thing to do to help each other.

[Lil Red]

I have a difficult time understanding how St Padre Pio turning immodesty dressed women away from Confession is "hatred" or misogyny when you consider this quote that I tried posting:

 

"Don't you know," he asked, "what pain it costs me to shut the door on anyone?  The Lord has forced me to do so.  I do not call anyone, nor do I refuse anyone either.  There is someone else who calls and refuses them.  I am His useless tool."

 

He was just trying to help the women.

 

What if clothes in our age are immodest. Why are we jumping to conclusions about St Padre Pio, and not our culture?
 

 

ROFL. So I have some unsavory opinions and spread them around as long as I say, "But I'm just trying to HELP people"? 

[Lil Red]

Someone using quotes from a saint to hold a mysoginistic woman hating attitude is much much different than saying that the saint himself was a mysoginist.

 

see what beatitude said. 

[Slappo]

Misogyny refers to treatment of women as less than equal. Unpicking the etymology of the term is typically what happens when people want to sidestep an accusation of unequal treatment. "It is misogynistic when women are only judged to have worth because they can bear children..." And bam, instead of focusing on the problematic belief concerning worth, we end up homing in on the word 'misogyny'. "Well, he didn't say he HATED women, that's not fair!" Taking refuge behind semantics is not a defence and it doesn't negate the gravity of what was said about women. Saying that this saint or that saint just wasn't fully aware of 'women's goodness' trivialises all the damage and abuse that has been meted out to women over the years in the name of beliefs like this one, and it also serves to propagate the notion that misogyny is this very rare thing - not a serious widespread problem at all...

 

KoC, that website only questions the authenticity of one quotation (the one calling for segregation). Scrolling through many of the other unsavoury quotations listed, the justifications range from weak calls for context to accusations of poor translation. I think good apologetics requires being honest, especially when it comes to human frailty. A new translation of St Augustine isn't suddenly going to make him a champion of women's equality.

 

As for the reference to the discussions of the pope's foot-washing ritual and his shoes (in which I did not participate), I have this to say...it seems that some people around here find the pope's refusal of the red footwear an awful lot more disturbing and worthy of debate than the idea that women are just brood mares. Which is a little concerning.

 

Saying this saint or that saint was a mysoginistic jerk who hated women trivializes the fact that this man was deemed to be someone with heroic virtue by the Church. If by mysogyny you mean "someone who did not view women as equals" then say it. That's not what mysogyny means. It literally means "women haters".

 

I do not think mysogyny is widespread and rampant. I think sexism is widespread, but that is far different than mysogyny. Do I think it is problematic that St. Augistine did not view women as being equal in dignity? Yes I most certainly do, and I am glad that we have more recent teachings from excellent theologians that clarify the truth behind the equality and dignity of women. I'm certainly not going to call St. Augustine a woman hater for holding theological errors on the dignity of women though.

[Basilisa Marie]

No one is denying that the Pope is the Pope by not wearing a mozetta either, so I don't see how you can separate the two as you tried to.

 

Using your last statement I could say "You can criticize the magisterium/your local ordinary/the Holy Father/your local priest without denying them their place in the Church"

 

No, but some people were getting pretty darn close to denying the pope is the pope because of the foot washing thing.  

 

Yes.  I can criticize my parish priest for being a jerk.  I can write a letter to my bishop explaining in excruciating detail how I think he's a jerk.  I can then write a letter to the pope explaining that my bishop is a jerk.  I can think something the pope does is a bad idea (as people around here have done).  I can even think that the pope is a big fat meanieface.  

 

But what I can't do is say that my priest isn't my priest, my bishop isn't my bishop, and my pope isn't my pope, I can't say they don't have apostolic succession, I can't say that I'm not bound to obey their authority.  

[the171]

When I came back into the church I was wearing what you call "non-Mary like clothing." Thankfully a loving priest heard my confession and accepted me. If would have been turned away because of my clothes, I would have never come back.

[MarysLittleFlower]

ROFL. So I have some unsavory opinions and spread them around as long as I say, "But I'm just trying to HELP people"? 

 

St Padre Pio did try to help people. Did you read the quote I provided? It wasn't just an "unsavory opinion". He was a confessor! and a saint too. It's different.

Edited April 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Lil Red]

I'm done in this discussion because it seems like people are bordering on saint idolatry and not bothering to actually listen to a beaver dam thing I say. Good day, sir.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I said good day.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Saying this saint or that saint was a mysoginistic jerk who hated women trivializes the fact that this man was deemed to be someone with heroic virtue by the Church. If by mysogyny you mean "someone who did not view women as equals" then say it. That's not what mysogyny means. It literally means "women haters".

 

I do not think mysogyny is widespread and rampant. I think sexism is widespread, but that is far different than mysogyny. Do I think it is problematic that St. Augistine did not view women as being equal in dignity? Yes I most certainly do, and I am glad that we have more recent teachings from excellent theologians that clarify the truth behind the equality and dignity of women. I'm certainly not going to call St. Augustine a woman hater for holding theological errors on the dignity of women though.

 

I find it sad that people think that St Padre Pio was a "woman hater" when he tried to help women grow in virtue.

No, but some people were getting pretty darn close to denying the pope is the pope because of the foot washing thing.  

 

Yes.  I can criticize my parish priest for being a jerk.  I can write a letter to my bishop explaining in excruciating detail how I think he's a jerk.  I can then write a letter to the pope explaining that my bishop is a jerk.  I can think something the pope does is a bad idea (as people around here have done).  I can even think that the pope is a big fat meanieface.  

 

But what I can't do is say that my priest isn't my priest, my bishop isn't my bishop, and my pope isn't my pope, I can't say they don't have apostolic succession, I can't say that I'm not bound to obey their authority.  

I don't think we should criticize priests to others in a gossipy way. If they are doing something wrong, we can pray for them. I don't think we should have discussions about them with our Catholic friends calling them jerks. I'm not saying you do that.

 

But St Padre Pio wasn't a jerk for trying to help women be modest, he was helping them grow in virtue, and that is love.

Edited April 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower