Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[the171]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[MarysLittleFlower]

When I came back into the church I was wearing what you call "non-Mary like clothing." Thankfully a loving priest heard my confession and accepted me. If would have been turned away because of my clothes, I would have never come back.

When I came into the Church I also wore non Mary like clothing. When I changed my mind about it, I wished I had known sooner. I'm not blaming any priest for not talking about it, because the whole topic is not often discussed nowadays and we grow up in this culture.

 

St Padre Pio talked about it though. I don't think he was unloving.

[MarysLittleFlower]

This is why we can't have nice things.

why are modest things not nice?

[MarysLittleFlower]

I think I'm going to leave this thread...it's just going in circles.

Edited April 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[the171]

why are modest things not nice?

I didn't say that. That statement was referring to how we can't ever link up bathing suits without a crapstorm of "oh that's not modest."

[beatitude]

Saying this saint or that saint was a mysoginistic jerk who hated women trivializes the fact that this man was deemed to be someone with heroic virtue by the Church. If by mysogyny you mean "someone who did not view women as equals" then say it. That's not what mysogyny means. It literally means "women haters".

No, it emphasises the grace of God and the strength of God's love by showing us that even people who held some terrible ideas can become saints and demonstrate great virtue.

 

I feel that you are hair-splitting here in order to make St Augustine's views more palatable. There are thousands of words in the English language that are used to mean things that aren't quite in alignment with their etymological root, and misogyny is one of them.

 

As for the use of 'misogyny' versus the use of 'sexism' - a lot of men who use prostitutes (an industry that is pretty much built on the bodies of trafficked and otherwise very vulnerable women) would deny hotly that they hate women. And maybe they have female friends and women colleagues whom they like and they love their mothers. But if you go to the prostituted woman who has been trafficked from Ukraine and is being kept as a sex slave, semantic issues over whether the punters can be said to hate her or not aren't going to be her first concern. Her first concern is that there are men out there who see her and her body as an object to be bought, a legitimate transaction. A society where this can flourish on the scale that it does is a misogynistic society, full stop. When I look at this, men who get upset over the root of the word (and it is overwhelmingly men) are not my primary issue of concern either.

[Roamin Catholic]

Let this be the thread for a discussion for Church/Saint teaching in regards to modesty. 

 

As this is TL; please remember the rule of no debating. 

[the171]

Let this be the thread for a discussion for Church/Saint teaching in regards to modesty. 

 

As this is TL; please remember the rule of no debating. 

 

I see what you did there.

[KnightofChrist]

I see. So you accept going to dances as sinful because a couple of saints have said so.
 
I have referred a few times to St Augustine's derogatory comments on women. Here they are in full:
 
"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman...I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."
 
This is the opinion of a saint and a doctor of the Church, one of Christianity's foremost theologians and scholars. Would you recommend that husbands on Phatmass use this as a guide to how they should view their wives? That they are dangerous temptresses and their only worth is determined by the fact they have a womb? After all, it was written by a saint, so it must be right.

[ETA: Part of] This quote comes from St Augustine's 243rd letter. The second half of the quote "I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children" is not part of the letter. Therefore, it appears that Sherif Abdel Azeem has invented a bad statement and falsely attributed it to a great Christian. Anyone who wants a copy of the entire letter is welcome to email me. Alternately, the entire letter can be found in

The Fathers of the Church - A New Translation, Volume 32, St Augustine Letters (204-270), trans. Sr Wilfrid Parsons, S. N. D. (New York: Fathers of the Church, Inc, 1956).

St Augustine wrote this letter to a friend named Laetus. Laetus had entered religious life and his mother was tempting him to abandon this way of life for worldly reasons. Religious life consists in Christian men and women committing themselves completely to the service of God and his Church in a life of poverty, celibacy and obedience. Laetus wanted St Augustine to write to him.

The context explains why St Augustine said, "What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman." This was not an arbitrary statement, but was said to strengthen Laetus against his mother's attempts to remove him from religious life for worldly reasons. The rest of the letter is filled with other Biblical ideas and images. Augustine's statement is similar to Christians saying "Beware of Pharaoh the tyrant in rulers", "Beware of Adam the blame-shifter in men", "Beware of Judas the traitor in the people around you", or "Beware of Peter the denier in yourself" (Genesis 3:12; Exodus 1:8-16; Matthew 26:14-16, 69-75). Elsewhere in the same letter, St Augustine tells Laetus to treat his mother with respect because she is a sister to him in Christ.

Speaking more generally about St Augustine's view of women, it is fair to say that Sherif Abdel Azeem's picture of St Augustine is not accurate. Firstly, Augustine supported and praised virginity, widowhood and monasticism. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that he thought the only purpose of women was for childbearing. Secondly, in the classic autobiography of his spiritual journey and conversion to Christianity (the Confessions), Augustine says that male and female are one and that God does not discriminate between them (Book 13, Section 23). Thirdly, Augustine talks about Adam being the cause and transmitter of original sin and its consequences (City of God, Books 13 and 14).

The relevant works may be found online at the following addresses:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA: The Rule of St Augustine
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02079b.htm

Of Holy Virginity by St Augustine
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1310.htm

On the Good of Widowhood by St Augustine
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1311.htm

The Confessions
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1101.htm

The City of God
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1201.htm


Source: http://answering-islam.org/Wales/eve.htm

 

[jim111]

THERE ARE NO SET STANDARDS FOR MODESTY IN CATHOLIC TRADITION.

 

 

Standards of Modesty in Dress

Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956

"A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees.  Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper."

The Cardinal Vicar of  Pius XII

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html

 

 

Edited April 26, 2013 by jim111

[arfink]

^^ That's a bunch of bull, as previously established in this thread. Please re-read.

[EmilyAnn]

 

Standards of Modesty in Dress

Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956

"A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees.  Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper."

The Cardinal Vicar of  Pius XII

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html

 

 

Please see around pages 3-4 of this thread, it sheds a lot of light on the lack of authenticity of those "standards". 

[Papist]

THERE ARE NO SET STANDARDS FOR MODESTY IN CATHOLIC TRADITION.

 

 

 

 

Therefore, modesty is whatever you want/need it to be.

[the171]

Standards of Modesty in Dress

Imprimatur dated Sept. 24, 1956

"A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper."

The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html

Hi Jim! It's so nice to meet you, but...


NO.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

I like the standards, Jim. Let's be friends.