Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[beatitude]

Maybe it's not being discussed anywhere else and that is why? Just a thought :)

 

The problem is that no source is given for the quotation, and as I've already pointed out, if you Google search 'Cardinal Vicar of Pius XII', that quotation is literally the only thing that surfaces about him.

[EmilyAnn]

Maybe it's not being discussed anywhere else and that is why? Just a thought :)

 

I have managed to a source for the letter, but not the Cardinal Vicar's supposed standards. You can see here on pages 26-28 (it's in Latin, I haven't managed to find it in English). But the title does not mention "Papal Decree" at all as some sources state, it appears to be a letter. And the letter mentions no specific standards for dress. 

 

 

As for the supposed standards, I have found two different dates being references, one to 1930 and another to 1956. Mentioned in said different dates and then the Cardinal Vicar to Pius XI and the Cardinal Vicar to Pius XII. So I remain sceptical. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for linking the document! :)

 

I've been thinking about what to say here... sorry for this really serious post lol :) I don't see myself as worthy to preach to others about modesty especially since in the past I have gravely sinned against it. But I wanted to share what is on my heart and also what I found from the Church, just in case someone is interested :)

 

In links such as the one above, we can see the Pope spoke very firmly about the need for women to be modest. One difficulty with our modern times is that the culturally accepted views of modesty have changed. Before, if a woman wore shorts, there would have been much said about it. Today, most women in the West wear shorts. This inevitably leads to the question: is modesty relative?

 

What follows is just my own opinion on this. Our Lady said at Fatima that there would be fashions introduced that would greatly offend God. And we all know we can get used to anything - like the frog in boiling water example... This suggests to me that nothing has changed in terms of the objective modesty standards, only our tolerance level has - so only subjectively. This would point to modesty being something objective. I can't judge people for immodesty because we grow up in such a culture that teaches many wrong things from childhood (and has taught our parents too), so people might not really have information, and God knows and judges all our hearts, - I leave that to Him.

 

But if we look at some statements from the Vatican and other Catholic clergy from last century, they forbade things like mixed bathing (men and women swimming together on beaches). This was at a time when no one wore tiny bikinis. COuld it be that we've grown accustomed and desensitized? I t doesn't mean that all things are sexual, it does mean that certain things are, or are suggestive of them.

 

It has been asked, what does it mean to dress in a Mary-like way? I don't mean specifically only like in Palestine 2000 years ago, though I think what they wore is beautiful and I would be happy to dress that way. I mean in general, we could dress in a way that Mary would approve! :)

 

To me, this is:

- clothing that does not reveal the figure (not tight)

- clothing that does not suggest to the imagination parts of the body that are hidden (I like modest skirts for this reason)

- clothes that are feminine, and don't distort the body the way God made it.

 

I think the idea is simply not showing what Mary would not show. I realize that might seem extreme because of today's fashions. But we can ask ourselves, why does Mary wear long dresses? I think that's the perfect way, and maybe her level of perfection isn't always possible today because fashions have changed so significantly, but we can see how certain things are less Mary-like. I say this thought I'm an ordinary Catholic and a sinner, and not in a position to preach to anyone. But when I read those things, I felt convicted to follow them, and perhaps had I not read them, I would never have found out about it. If it is God's will, I pray that He would use this if He chooses, otherwise I hope that He would forgive me for being so opinionated and specific on the topic. I do believe this way.

 

I read about St Padre Pio. In the 60s, when women wore p.ants and mini skirts, he only allowed women to his confessional who weore long skirts (at least 8 inches below the knee, based on a sign that was on his confessional), and veils, no low cut tops, no transparent or tight clothng, etc. I am not a mystic or a saint, but St Padre Pio is. He could also read people's souls, and knew how sin could affect us and what could tempt others or just damage morals in society. (I think maybe some immodesty in our culture is so used to by now that it doesn't shock anyone, but it still shows how our culture has lost certain values or certain customs were corrupted). I believe that he could see, where immodesty would lead us eventually. There was a story about a woman who lived in America and came to him for Confession. She had a store where she sold p.ants. He told her about this and said to go back and get rid of the p.ants, and then receive absolution.

 

Of course I'm not St Padre Pio, and I can't talk about the state of people's souls of those who wear p.ants.. and in our society, there's a certain lack of information on this becuase almost everyone grows up wearing p.ants (I mean women) and most people never really think about it. God knows their hearts, I do not. I'm just talking about the objective idea. I know that my view might seem extreme in our society, but - St Padre Pio lived in the 60s... what if it's our society that has gone astray? But St Padre Pio knew where this was leading, and warned the woman to not sell the p.ants to other women and spread this new idea. Maybe there's something more feminine in skirts, less confusing to society in the long run. Maybe - skirts also cover more, if they are modest. I remember when I wore skinny jeans - I didn't think much of it, but at times I would be aware of how tightly they are around the hips. Especially when I was at church. I know we're all used to this and much more, but can't it said at all that society has erred in making us used to it? Have we been led astray? or nothing wrong with p.ants after all?

 

I realize many here might like p.ants, like I used to like them. I actually disliked wearing skirts and avoided them as much as I could. I understand and I don't want to judge others. I'm just like everyone else. But there is something beautiful about longer skirts and maybe that's just something to think about :)

 

I remember whenever I attend a Latin Mass in a neighbouring city, I always see a young woman there who I think truly dresses in a Mary-like way. I feel like God has used her example in my life because after seeing the way she dressed I was inspired to also dress more modestly and felt peace about it. This drew me closer to God.

 

I think there's something beautiful in dressing in such a way that Jesus and Mary would be glad to see :) I think it's beautiful to dress in the way that St Padre Pio wanted women to dress. Personally, I accept the statements about Mary-like modesty given before in this thread. I know soo many debates happen about this topic and I realize maybe my view seems a little extreme or different, but this is just what I've come to believe, and I dont' see myself as a 'different' sort of Catholic. I hope God would help us all (me included) learn more about this and to help us realize the truth, whatever it is.

 

I remember reading a document about a freemason plan to attack the Church, from long ago, and one point was introducing immodesty in women, and giving any pretext to it like "health" "hygiene" etc. Maybe some might question if this document is accurate, but we can agree that we see this now in our day, so maybe something to think about is why this is happening. I think it's good to question our society's standards and not just assume everything is correct because we've grown up that way.. I think it's best to just seek God's will and be open :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

Here are some Church quotes I found, or quotes from the Saints:

 

 

 http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Popesonmodesty.html

 

"The good of our soul is more important than that of our body; and we have to prefer the spiritual welfare of our neighbor to our bodily comforts. If a certain kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin, and endangers the salvation of your soul and others, it is your duty to give it up. O Christian mothers, if you knew what a future of anxieties and perils, of ill-guarded shame you prepare for your sons and daughters, imprudently getting them accustomed to live scantily dressed and making them lose the sense of modesty, you would be ashamed of yourselves and you would dread the harm you are making of yourselves, the harm which you are causing these children, whom Heaven has entrusted to you to be brought up as Christians."

Pius XII to Catholic Young Women's Groups of Italy

THIS LEAFLET DISTRIBUTED BY: THE LEAGUE FOR MODESTY IN DRESS, NY

 

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Jacintamodesty.html

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Mens_Dress.html

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/PadrePio.html

 

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Papist]

In our culture, shame is highly under-rated.

 

Indeed. Don't hear, "You should be ashamed of yourself" much at all. I heard it on a daily basis back in elementary school.

 

Why would anyone go to a nudist beach besides a small subculture?

 

The only way to be modest at a nude beach is to not be at a nude beach. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Notification concerning

Men's Dress Worn By Women

 

By Giuseppe Cardinal Siri

Genoa,

June 12, 1960

 

To the Reverend Clergy,

To all Teaching sisters,

To the beloved sons of Catholic Action,

To Educators intending truly to follow Christian Doctrine.

 

I

The first signs of our late arriving spring indicate that there is this year a certain increase in the use of men's dress by girls and women, even family mothers. Up until 1959, in Genoa, such dress usually meant the person was a tourist, but now it seems to be a significant number of girls and women from Genoa itself who are choosing at least on pleasure trips to wear men's dress (men's trousers).

The extension of this behavior obliges us to take serious thought, and we ask those to whom this Notification is addressed to kindly lend to the problem all the attention it deserves from anyone aware of being in any way responsible before God.

 

We seek above all to give a balanced moral judgment upon the wearing of men's dress by women. In fact Our thoughts can only bear upon the moral question.

 

Firstly, when it comes to covering of the female body, the wearing of men's trousers by women cannot be said to constitute as such a grave offense against modesty since trousers certainly cover more of woman's body than do modern women's skirts.

 

Secondly, however, clothes to be modest need not only to cover the body but also not to cling too closely to the body. Now it is true that much feminine clothing today clings closer than do some trousers, but trousers can be made to cling closer, in fact generally they do, so the tight fit of such clothing gives us not less grounds for concern than does exposure of the body. So the immodesty of men's trousers on women is an aspect of the problem which is not to be left out of an over-all judgment upon them, even if it is not to be artificially exaggerated either.

 

II

However, it is a different aspect of women's wearing of men's trousers which seems to us the gravest.

The wearing of men's dress by women affects firstly the woman herself, by changing the feminine psychology proper to women; secondly it affects the woman as wife of her husband, by tending to vitiate relationships between the sexes; thirdly it affects the woman as mother of her children by harming her dignity in her children's eyes. Each of these points is to be carefully considered in turn:--

 

A. MALE DRESS CHANGES THE PSYCHOLOGY OF WOMAN.

In truth, the motive impelling women to wear men's dress is always that of imitating, nay, of competing with, the man who is considered stronger, less tied down, more independent. This motivation shows clearly that male dress is the visible aid to bringing about a mental attitude of being "like a man." Secondly, ever since men have been men, the clothing a person wears, demands, imposes and modifies that person's gestures, attitudes and behavior, such that from merely being worn outside, clothing comes to impose a particular frame of mind inside.

 

Then let us add that woman wearing man's dress always more or less indicates her reacting to her femininity as though it is inferiority when in fact it is only diversity. The perversion of her psychology is clear to be seen.

 

These reasons, summing up many more, are enough to warn us how wrongly women are made to think by the wearing of men's dress.

 

 

B. MALE DRESS TENDS TO VITIATE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN WOMEN AND MEN.

In truth when relationships between the two sexes unfold with the coming of age, an instinct of mutual attraction is predominant. The essential basis of this attraction is a diversity between the two sexes which is made possible only by their complementing or completing one another. If then this "diversity" becomes less obvious because one of its major external signs is eliminated and because the normal psychological structure is weakened, what results is the alteration of a fundamental factor in the relationship.

 

The problem goes further still. Mutual attraction between the sexes is preceded both naturally, and

in order of time, by that sense of shame which holds the rising instincts in check, imposes respect upon them, and tends to lift to a higher level of mutual esteem and healthy fear everything that those instincts would push onwards to uncontrolled acts. To change that clothing which by its diversity reveals and upholds nature's limits and defense-works, is to flatten out the distinctions and to help

pull down the vital defense-works of the sense of shame.

 

It is at least to hinder that sense. And when the sense of shame is hindered from putting on the brakes, then relationships between man and women sink degradingly down to pure sensuality,

devoid of all mutual respect or esteem.

 

Experience is there to tell us that when woman is de-feminised, then defenses are undermined and weakness increases.

 

 

C. MALE DRESS HARMS THE DIGNITY OF THE MOTHER IN HER CHILDREN'S EYES.

All children have an instinct for the sense of dignity and decorum of their mother. Analysis of the

first inner crisis of children when they awaken to life around them even before they enter upon adolescence, shows how much the sense of their mother counts. Children are as sensitive as can

be on this point. Adults have usually left all that behind them and think no more on it. But we would do well to recall to mind the severe demands that children instinctively make of their own mother,

and the deep and even terrible reactions roused in them by observation of their mother's misbehavior. Many lines of later life are here traced out -- and not for good -- in these early inner dramas of infancy and childhood.

 

The child may not know the definition of exposure, frivolity or infidelity, but he possesses an instinctive sixth sense to recognize them when they occur, to suffer from them, and be bitterly wounded by them in his soul.

 

III

Let us think seriously on the import of everything said so far, even if woman's appearing in man's dress does not immediately give rise to all the upset caused by grave immodesty.

 

The changing of feminine psychology does fundamental and, in the long run, irreparable damage to the family, to conjugal fidelity, to human affections and to human society. True, the effects of wearing unsuitable dress are not all to be seen within a short time. But one must think of what is being slowly and insidiously worn down, torn apart, perverted.

 

Is any satisfying reciprocity between husband and wife imaginable, if feminine psychology be changed? Or is any true education of children imaginable, which is so delicate in its procedure, so woven of imponderable factors in which the mother's intuition and instinct play the decisive part in those tender years? What will these women be able to give their children when they will so long have worn trousers that their self-esteem goes more by their competing with the men than by their functioning as women?

 

Why, we ask, ever since men have been men, or rather since they became civilized -- why have men in all times and places been irresistibly borne to make a differentiated division between the functions of the two sexes? Do we not have here strict testimony to the recognition by all mankind of a truth and a law above man?

 

To sum up, wherever women wear men's dress, it is to be considered a factor in the long run tearing apart human order.

 

IV

The logical consequence of everything presented so far is that anyone in a position of responsibility should be possessed by a SENSE of ALARM in the true and proper meaning of the word, a severe and decisive ALARM.

 

We address a grave warning to parish priests, to all priests in general and to confessors in particular, to members of every kind of association, to all religious, to all nuns, especially to teaching Sisters.

We invite them to become clearly conscious of the problem so that action will follow. This consciousness is what matters. It will suggest the appropriate action in due time. But let it not counsel us to give way in the face of inevitable change, as though we are confronted by a natural evolution of mankind, and so on!

 

Men may come and men may go, because God has left plenty of room for the to and fro of their free-will; but the substantial lines of nature and the not less substantial lines of Eternal Law have never changed, are not changing and never will change. There are bounds beyond which one may stray as far as one sees fit, but to do so ends in death; there are limits which empty philosophical fantasizing may have one mock or not take seriously, but they put together an alliance of hard facts and nature to chastise anybody who steps over them. And history has sufficiently taught, with frightening proof from the life and death of nations, that the reply to all violators of the outline of "humanity" is always, sooner or later, catastrophe.

 

From the dialectic of Hegel onwards, we have had dinned in our ears what are nothing but fables, and by dint of hearing them so often, many people end up by getting used to them, if only passively. But the truth of the matter is that Nature and Truth, and the Law bound up in both, go their imperturbable way, and they cut to pieces the simpletons who upon no grounds whatsoever believe in radical and far-reaching changes in the very structure of man.

 

The consequences of such violations are not a new outline of man, but disorders, hurtful instability of all kinds, the frightening dryness of human souls, the shattering increase in the number of human castaways, driven long since out of people's sight and mind to live out their decline in boredom, sadness and rejection. Aligned on the wrecking of the eternal norms are to be found the broken families, lives cut short before their time, hearths and homes gone cold, old people cast to one side, youngsters willfully degenerate and -- at the end of the line -- souls in despair and taking their own lives. All of which human wreckage gives witness to the fact that the "line of God" does not give way, nor does it admit of any adaption to the delirious dreams of the so-called philosophers!

 

V

We have said that those to whom the present Notification is addressed are invited to take serious alarm at the problem in hand. Accordingly they know what they have to say, starting with little girls on their mother's knee.

 

They know that without exaggerating or turning into fanatics, they will need to strictly limit how far they tolerate women dressing like men, as a general rule.

 

They know they must never be so weak as to let anyone believe that they turn a blind eye to a custom which is slipping downhill and undermining the moral standing of all institutions.

 

They, the priests, know that the line they have to take in the confessional, while not holding women dressing like men to be automatically a grave fault, must be sharp and decisive.

 

Everybody will kindly give thought to the need for a united line of action, reinforced on every side by the cooperation of all men of good will and all enlightened minds, so as to create a true dam to hold back the flood.

 

Those of you responsible for souls in whatever capacity understand how useful it is to have for allies in this defensive campaign men of the arts, the media and the crafts. The position taken by fashion design houses, their brilliant designers and the clothing industry, is of crucial importance in this whole question. Artistic sense, refinement and good taste meeting together can find suitable but dignified solution as to the dress for women to wear when they must use a motorcycle or engage in this or that exercise or work. What matters is to preserve modesty together with the eternal sense of femininity, that femininity which more than anything else all children will continue to associate with the face of their mother.

 

We do not deny that modern life sets problems and makes requirements unknown to our grandparents. But we state that there are values more needing to be protected than fleeting experiences, and that for anybody of intelligence there are always good sense and good taste enough to find acceptable and dignified solutions to problems as they come up.

 

Out of charity we are fighting against the flattening out of mankind, against the attack upon those differences on which rests the complementarity of man and woman.

 

When we see a woman in trousers, we should think not so much of her as of all mankind, of what it will be when women will have masculinized themselves for good. Nobody stands to gain by helping to bring about a future age of vagueness, ambiguity, imperfection and, in a word, monstrosities.

This letter of Ours is not addressed to the public, but to those responsible for souls, for education, for Catholic associations. Let them do their duty, and let them not be sentries caught asleep at their post while evil crept in.

 

Giuseppe Cardinal Siri

Archbishop of Genoa

 

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Mens_Dress.html 

[Papist]

 

Sorry, but this is false.

[Papist]

Dupe due to slowness

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Papist

[Papist]

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Papist

[EmilyAnn]

Thanks for linking the document! :)

 

I've been thinking about what to say here... sorry for this really serious post lol :) I don't see myself as worthy to preach to others about modesty especially since in the past I have gravely sinned against it. But I wanted to share what is on my heart and also what I found from the Church, just in case someone is interested :)

 

In links such as the one above, we can see the Pope spoke very firmly about the need for women to be modest. One difficulty with our modern times is that the culturally accepted views of modesty have changed. Before, if a woman wore shorts, there would have been much said about it. Today, most women in the West wear shorts. This inevitably leads to the question: is modesty relative?

 

What follows is just my own opinion on this. Our Lady said at Fatima that there would be fashions introduced that would greatly offend God. And we all know we can get used to anything - like the frog in boiling water example... This suggests to me that nothing has changed in terms of the objective modesty standards, only our tolerance level has - so only subjectively. This would point to modesty being something objective. I can't judge people for immodesty because we grow up in such a culture that teaches many wrong things from childhood (and has taught our parents too), so people might not really have information, and God knows and judges all our hearts, - I leave that to Him.

 

But if we look at some statements from the Vatican and other Catholic clergy from last century, they forbade things like mixed bathing (men and women swimming together on beaches). This was at a time when no one wore tiny bikinis. COuld it be that we've grown accustomed and desensitized? I t doesn't mean that all things are sexual, it does mean that certain things are, or are suggestive of them.

 

It has been asked, what does it mean to dress in a Mary-like way? I don't mean specifically only like in Palestine 2000 years ago, though I think what they wore is beautiful and I would be happy to dress that way. I mean in general, we could dress in a way that Mary would approve! :)

 

To me, this is:

- clothing that does not reveal the figure (not tight)

- clothing that does not suggest to the imagination parts of the body that are hidden (I like modest skirts for this reason)

- clothes that are feminine, and don't distort the body the way God made it.

 

I think the idea is simply not showing what Mary would not show. I realize that might seem extreme because of today's fashions. But we can ask ourselves, why does Mary wear long dresses? I think that's the perfect way, and maybe her level of perfection isn't always possible today because fashions have changed so significantly, but we can see how certain things are less Mary-like. I say this thought I'm an ordinary Catholic and a sinner, and not in a position to preach to anyone. But when I read those things, I felt convicted to follow them, and perhaps had I not read them, I would never have found out about it. If it is God's will, I pray that He would use this if He chooses, otherwise I hope that He would forgive me for being so opinionated and specific on the topic. I do believe this way.

 

I read about St Padre Pio. In the 60s, when women wore p.ants and mini skirts, he only allowed women to his confessional who weore long skirts (at least 8 inches below the knee, based on a sign that was on his confessional), and veils, no low cut tops, no transparent or tight clothng, etc. I am not a mystic or a saint, but St Padre Pio is. He could also read people's souls, and knew how sin could affect us and what could tempt others or just damage morals in society. (I think maybe some immodesty in our culture is so used to by now that it doesn't shock anyone, but it still shows how our culture has lost certain values or certain customs were corrupted). I believe that he could see, where immodesty would lead us eventually. There was a story about a woman who lived in America and came to him for Confession. She had a store where she sold p.ants. He told her about this and said to go back and get rid of the p.ants, and then receive absolution.

 

Of course I'm not St Padre Pio, and I can't talk about the state of people's souls of those who wear p.ants.. and in our society, there's a certain lack of information on this becuase almost everyone grows up wearing p.ants (I mean women) and most people never really think about it. God knows their hearts, I do not. I'm just talking about the objective idea. I know that my view might seem extreme in our society, but - St Padre Pio lived in the 60s... what if it's our society that has gone astray? But St Padre Pio knew where this was leading, and warned the woman to not sell the p.ants to other women and spread this new idea. Maybe there's something more feminine in skirts, less confusing to society in the long run. Maybe - skirts also cover more, if they are modest. I remember when I wore skinny jeans - I didn't think much of it, but at times I would be aware of how tightly they are around the hips. Especially when I was at church. I know we're all used to this and much more, but can't it said at all that society has erred in making us used to it? Have we been led astray? or nothing wrong with p.ants after all?

 

I realize many here might like p.ants, like I used to like them. I actually disliked wearing skirts and avoided them as much as I could. I understand and I don't want to judge others. I'm just like everyone else. But there is something beautiful about longer skirts and maybe that's just something to think about :)

 

I remember whenever I attend a Latin Mass in a neighbouring city, I always see a young woman there who I think truly dresses in a Mary-like way. I feel like God has used her example in my life because after seeing the way she dressed I was inspired to also dress more modestly and felt peace about it. This drew me closer to God.

 

I think there's something beautiful in dressing in such a way that Jesus and Mary would be glad to see :) I think it's beautiful to dress in the way that St Padre Pio wanted women to dress. Personally, I accept the statements about Mary-like modesty given before in this thread. I know soo many debates happen about this topic and I realize maybe my view seems a little extreme or different, but this is just what I've come to believe, and I dont' see myself as a 'different' sort of Catholic. I hope God would help us all (me included) learn more about this and to help us realize the truth, whatever it is.

 

I remember reading a document about a freemason plan to attack the Church, from long ago, and one point was introducing immodesty in women, and giving any pretext to it like "health" "hygiene" etc. Maybe some might question if this document is accurate, but we can agree that we see this now in our day, so maybe something to think about is why this is happening. I think it's good to question our society's standards and not just assume everything is correct because we've grown up that way.. I think it's best to just seek God's will and be open :)

 

 

 My problem with this is that there is an implicit understanding in this that if someone does not conform to the standards that you prescribe to, then they are not 'Mary-like' and are failing in some way. Is the Blessed Mother unhappy with women who do not wear skirts down to the floor? "Maybe that's just something to think about" again implies that you are right and others just need to think about it and see that. When I go to Mass in a skirt that reaches just below my knees, are Jesus and Mary unhappy with my dress?

 

If those are your personal standards then fine, that's your choice. But I reject the implication that women who do not are not living up to this supposed "Mary-like" standard and are falling into societal traps of thinking. Quoting a bunch of things the Church and saints said about modesty is all good and well, but we are held to the virtue of modesty, not the specific length of our skirts.

Edited April 9, 2013 by EmilyAnn

[Lil Red]

St. Pio may be a saint but he sounds like he was also a real jerk, to women especially.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Lil Red

[IcePrincessKRS]

Why, you interested?  :covereyes:  No. I was asking in general based on the gif.

 

No. I was just joking around.

[EmilyAnn]

St. Pio may be a saint but he sounds like he was also a real jerk, to women especially.

Gosh, I thought I was the only one who thought that about St. Pio. 

[Lil Red]

Gosh, I thought I was the only one who thought that about St. Pio.

Definitely not ;)

[Papist]

No. I was just joking around.

 

I know.