Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

Our Lady stated the obvious:   "there will be fashions introduced that will offend God."  

 

And if you don't agree and instead believe that in all cultures, and in every single corner of the world there are absolutely no such things as immodest fashions...then, there's nothing else to discuss...

 

 

This thread are for those who believe there are immodest fashions (we're not debating that in this thread.)  It's also a thread to discuss what the Saints have taught us and how do we apply their advice to our own fashions and dress.  

 

 

yes... I think what my approach has been, is just looking at Fatima, the Saints' statements, and basing my view of modesty on that, and also - some other things came up over time like certain statements by the Popes (like Pope Pius XII, if I remember correctly) - and just general theological principles like not tempting others. etc. When you put it all together.... then you kind of get a picture. I'm still collecting points, obviously :) and I still want to pray for more guidance on this, and also there's the points about humility and internal modesty as others have mentioned.

 

I think one of the points I've been trying to say is that when the Saints spoke about modesty, that means more to me than the standards we've grown up with, etc, because our society could easily be wrong. The Saints lived holy lives so they saw the world from a different perspective, like looking at a city from a tower, rather than from the streets. What they said was either revelation or the result of much prayer and serving God faithfully.

 

For me, it's like - St Padre Pio's words vs our cultural opinion... I'd much rather go with St Padre Pio :) I'm sure he knew more about this topic than I do.

 

If people say - we don't HAVE to believe these things, or - the Saints are not infallible - I don't think that's what I was getting at, I wasn't trying to show that Saints are infallible. However, just because they are infallible, doens't mean that we shouldn't take their words seriously, or that they are not true, or not revelaled by God, or that our society's views are better. In fact, I'd pretty much always choose a Saints' view over our society's view, cause frankly our society is following many wrong ideas.

 

I think in the end, I just decided to follow the Saints' advice about dress and fashions more than I did before... so for anyone who thinks this is a good idea, maybe we can look at what the Saints said and pray about how to apply it :) we can also ask God to help us see more about this topic, because there are many specific questions that maybe don't have answers, and we need light on certain issues that God can give. If He illuminates our minds, perhaps we would have a more correct outlook on these issues, so my plan is to pray for more guidance.

 

All I know is that when I come to church dressed more like what the Saints talked about - like what St Padre Pio advised women to wear - (and there was a quote about men too) - I feel much better and more peaceful because I'm more covered up so the attention is more on God, not on my appearance or trying to be "attractive". I still need to work some things out but overall I feel much better in church in a long skirt than I did before wearing other things :)

Edited May 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Papist]

 

Our Lady stated the obvious:   "there will be fashions introduced that will offend God."  

 

And if you don't agree and instead believe that in all cultures, and in every single corner of the world there are absolutely no such things as immodest fashions...then, there's nothing else to discuss...

 

 

This thread are for those who believe there are immodest fashions (we're not debating that in this thread.)  It's also a thread to discuss what the Saints have taught us and how do we apply their advice to our own fashions and dress.  

 

I believe Our Lady was being more prophetic than just clothes. Yes, it includes clothes, but I think about all the toxic fashions in the past 90 years that has pulled us away from Christ. e.g. Hell does not exist.

[Papist]

I think you are misunderstanding why I was making that point, and I have already explained in my posts responding to MarysLittleFlower .

To clarify, my objection was not to the use of Fatima in the discussion, my objection was that the other poster was demanding I use only doctrinal sources but not doing so themselves.

Sorry. 

[EmilyAnn]

I am trying to find the wider text of what Our Lady said at Fatima, specifically the context of this quote on fashions (and preferably the original Portuguese) but I can only seem to find that short quote on modesty sites. Or am I searching for the impossible?

[EmilyAnn]

Sorry. 

No problem. :) I understand when threads go over several pages it can be easy to misunderstand where a discussion came from. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I am trying to find the wider text of what Our Lady said at Fatima, specifically the context of this quote on fashions (and preferably the original Portuguese) but I can only seem to find that short quote on modesty sites. Or am I searching for the impossible?

 

hmm... it should be out there... maybe in a book rather than a website?

[MarysLittleFlower]

"However, just because they are infallible, doens't mean that we shouldn't take their words seriously, or that they are not true, or not revelaled by God, or that our society's views are better."

 

Oops I meant "just because they are not infallible..."  (Saints)

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

If anyone wants to go with me through what the Saints said, not to debate about their statements but consider them with an open mind and pray about them, that would be a helpful thing to do perhaps :) I know not everyone might agree with the statements, but looking back it seems we've all been debating a lot.... (me included). I understand that happens at forums. But is there a way to talk about them without debating?

[EmilyAnn]

hmm... it should be out there... maybe in a book rather than a website?

Good point. I'm just curious - both to the wider context and the original language.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I have a book about Fatima that I've never read, maybe i'll see if ther'es more info there... if there's a book with "everything that Our Lady ever said at Fatima" maybe that could help :) I don't know if such a book exists!

Edited May 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Maybe this information could be found in an article/book about Blessed Jacinta! Seems it seems that she received this particular revelation...

[Papist]

St. Francis of Assisi used to exhort his brethren frequently to guard and mortify their senses with the utmost care. He especially insisted on the custody of the eyes, and he used this parable of a King's two messengers to demonstrate how the purity of the eyes reveals the chastity of the soul. Reflecting on this little story helps me in my attempts to look at women with purity.

 

 

 

A certain pious King sent two messengers successively to the Queen with a communication from himself. The first messenger returned and brought an answer from the Queen, which he delivered exactly. But of the Queen herself he said nothing because he had always kept his eyes modestly cast down and had not raised them to look at her.

 

The King receives the two messengers

 

The second messenger also returned. But after delivering in a few words the answer of the Queen, he began to speak warmly of her beauty. “Truly, my lord,” he said, “the Queen is the most fair and lovely woman I have ever seen, and thou art indeed happy and blessed to have her for thy spouse.” 

 

At this the King was angry and said: “Wicked servant, how did you dare to cast your eyes upon my royal spouse? I believe that you may covet what you have so curiously gazed upon.” 

 

Then he commanded the other messenger to be recalled, and said to him: “What do you think of the Queen?” 

 

He replied, “She listened very willingly and humbly to the message of the King and replied most prudently.” 

 

But the Monarch again asked him, “But what do you think of her countenance? Did she not seem to you very fair and beautiful, more so than any other woman?” 

 

The servant replied, “My lord, I know nothing of the Queen’s beauty. Whether she be fair or not, it is for thee alone to know and judge. My duty was only to convey thy message to her.” 

 

The King rejoined, “You have answered well and wisely. You who have such chaste and modest eyes shall be my chamberlain. From the purity of your eyes I see the chastity of your soul. You are worthy to have the care of the royal apartments confided to you.” 

 

Then, turning to the other messenger, he said: “But you, who have such unmortified eyes, depart from the palace. You shall not remain in my house, for I have no confidence in your virtue.

 

The Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis of Assisi, 

London: R. Washbourne, 1882, pp. 254-255

[EmilyAnn]

Quite possibly. 

How interesting though that this discussion comes about on the anniversary of Our Lady's first appearance to the children! 

[Papist]

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RueYxbr8Ny0[/media]

[Papist]

I believe Our Lady was being more prophetic than just clothes. Yes, it includes clothes, but I think about all the toxic fashions in the past 90 years that has pulled us away from Christ. e.g. Hell does not exist.

However, ought not mean I can dismiss the clothes aspect of the Fatima message.

[jim111]

 

I understand what you mean now. Maybe Jim111 can clarify if he was trying to use doctrine or not :)

 

I see he included this quote, - but I'm not sure where it's from.... Jim111: could you explain to us maybe the source of this quote?

 

There are two aspects to Christian modesty. The first is to

avoid being an occasion of sin. The second, more positively

speaking, is to be instilled with the spirit of modesty inspired by

a deep love for the virtue of chastity, and also by the proper

understanding that our clothing is meant to enhance the

dignity of the human body and to be a symbol of our state in life.

Both aspects, while in no way excluding men, are much more important

for women. Because of the natural differences in the genders,

women are both far more prone to be occasions of sin, and, being

"the weaker vessel" (1Pet. 3:7),to be treated with less dignity

or respect. Proper dress does much to overcome this, and this is why

St. Paul wrote in the New Testament that women should appear

"in decent apparel; adorning themselves with modesty and

sobriety."

 

 

I posted the link to where I found the booklet.

 

 

Anyway the parts from Fatima and Pius XII were Doctrine. Here is the level of theological certainty of doctrine.

 

"§ 8. The Theological Grades of Certainty
I. The highest degree of certainty appertains to the inunediateiy revealed truths. The belief due to them is based on the authority of God Revealing (fides divina), and if the Church, through its teaching, vouches for the fact that a truth is contained in Revelation, one's certainty is then also based on the authority of the Infallible Teaching Authority of the Church (fuies catholica). If Truths are defined by a solemn judgment of faith (definition) of the Pope or of a General Council, they are "de fide definita.H

 

2.Catholic truths or Church doctrines, on which the mfalliblc Teaching Authority of the Church has finally decided, are to be accepted with a faith which is based on the sale authority of the Church (fides ecclesi.utica). These truths are as infallibly certain as dogmas proper.

 

3. A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church.

 

4. A Teaching permining to the Faith, i.e., theologically certain (sententia ad fidem pertinens, i.e., theologice certa) is a doctrine, on which the Teaching Authority of the Church has not yet finally pronounced, but whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine ofrevelation (theological conclusions).

 

5. Common Teaching (sententia communis) is doctrine, which in itself belongs to the field of the free opinions, but which is accepted by theologians generally"

 

6.Theological opinions of lesser grades of certainty are called probable, more probable, well-founded (sententia probabilis, probabilio~, bene fWldata). Those which are regarded as being in agreement with the consciousness of Faith of the Church ~re called pious opinions (sententia pia). The least degree of certainty is possessed by the tolerated opinion (opinio tolerata). which is only weakly founded, but which is tolerated by the Church.

 

With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (c£ D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible. Further, the decisions ofthe Roman Congregations (Holy Office, Bible Commission) are not infallible. Nevertheless normally they are to be accepted with an inner assent which is based on the high supernatural authority of the Holy See (assensus internus supernaturalis, assensus religiosus). The so-called U silentium obiequiosum." th It is " reverent silence." does not generally suffice. By way of exception. the obligation of inner agreement may cease if a competent expert, after a renewed scientific investigation of all grounds, arrives at the positive conviction that the decision rests on an error."

(Fundametals of Catholic Domga, Ludwig Ott)

If would like let me know and I will send you a PDF of the book.

 

If anyone wants to go with me through what the Saints said, not to debate about their statements but consider them with an open mind and pray about them, that would be a helpful thing to do perhaps :) I know not everyone might agree with the statements, but looking back it seems we've all been debating a lot.... (me included). I understand that happens at forums. But is there a way to talk about them without debating?

If you read the OP that was the intention of this thread.

 

Breaking my thing about not replying, but we are not bound to believe in Marian apparitions. The Church may deem an apparition "worthy of belief" but they are still private revelations and as I have said, we are not bound to believe in them. 

 

You are however bound to believe in the Pope such as Pius XII, and the consistent teachings of the church.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I found a great quote from Pope Pius XII. He says we must not evaluate clothes based on our society if the society is flawed in morals (which ours is I think), but based on a moral society.

 

"More basically, the immorality of some styles depends in great part on excesses either of immodesty or luxury. An excess of immodesty in fashion involves, in practice, the cut of the garment. The garment must not be evaluated according to the estimation of a decadent or already corrupt society, but according to the aspirations of a society which prizes the dignity and seriousness of its public attire. It is often said almost with passive resignation that fashions reflect the customs of a people. But it would be more exact and much more useful to say that they express the decision and moral direction that a nation intends to take: either to be shipwrecked in licentiousness or maintain itself at the level to which it has been raised by religion and civilization." (Pope Pius XII, "Moral Problems in Fashion Design", 1957)

 

[MarysLittleFlower]

http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20040321-Modesty-the-Virtue-That-Guards-Purity.html

 

Here's a good sermon about modesty from a Catholic priest :)

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I think Hollywood and t.v. series are a big player in wiping out the minds of the world on the level of modesty. Take a stand than and switch off your t.v's and don't goto the movies.Don't assume everyone else even has the faintest idea of what modesty is we have been zapped by the box. Theater has often throught history made a mockery of that which is sacred, as far as i can tell.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I agree that the media has contributed much to our society losting its sense of modesty! good point :)