Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[Papist]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

 

II. The Battle for Purity

2520  Baptism confers on its recipient the grace of purification from all sins. But the baptized must continue to struggle against concupiscence of the flesh and disordered desires. With God’s grace he will prevail (1264, 2337,1752, 1762, 2846)

–by the virtue and gift of chastity, for chastity lets us love with upright and undivided heart;

–by purity of intention which consists in seeking the true end of man: with simplicity of vision, the baptized person seeks to find and to fulfill God’s will in everything;³¹³

–by purity of vision, external and internal; by discipline of feelings and imagination; by refusing all complicity in impure thoughts that incline us to turn aside from the path of God’s commandments: “Appearance arouses yearning in fools”;³¹⁴

–by prayer:

I thought that continence arose from one’s own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know... that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.³¹⁵

2521    Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

2522    Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet. (2492)

2523    There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies. (2354)

2524    The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

2525    Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion. (2344)

2526    So-called moral permissiveness rests on an erroneous conception of human freedom; the necessary precondition for the development of true freedom is to let oneself be educated in the moral law. Those in charge of education can reasonably be expected to give young people instruction respectful of the truth, the qualities of the heart, and the moral and spiritual dignity of man. (1740)

2527    â€œThe Good News of Christ continually renews the life and culture of fallen man; it combats and removes the error and evil which flow from the ever-present attraction of sin. It never ceases to purify and elevate the morality of peoples. It takes the spiritual qualities and endowments of every age and nation, and with supernatural riches it causes them to blossom, as it were, from within; it fortifies, completes, and restores them in Christ.”³¹⁶ (1204)

Edited May 4, 2013 by Papist

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

:

2521    Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

I thought that continence arose from one’s own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know... that no one can be continent unless you grant it. For you would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you.

 

I know this doesn't have anything to do with what there getting at in these verse, but, i was thinking about not unveiling things that are meant to remain hidden, i likened this bit to gossip and boasting. Revealing your good works in prayer and charity to easily and revealing other peoples secrets to easily.

 

<edit> or after reading the remainder of your post perhaps what i have said does have to do with modesty.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[MarysLittleFlower]

Ave Maria! Happy Solemnity of St. Joseph the Worker!

 

 

SheisCatholic's family are friends to the FI! She's also done a few episodes on airmaria.com as well.

 

 

"Don't take responsibility for guys looking"

"he needs to man up and take control of avoiding the near occasion of sin."

 

There are some very dangerous sentiments in this thread. Please stick with our guide, Holy Mother Church and her teachings led by the Holy Spirit Himself, our Holy Fathers and their encyclicals and guidance as Vicar of Christ Himself, saints and doctors of the Church. It is difficult to not follow the changing trends of the world, but it is our duty as Christians to do so because they will only lead you further and further away from God.

 

A quick search shows catholicmodesty.com to have some good info.

 

I thought Dressing with Dignity by Colleen Hammond was a good read, although there was mention of the details of a particular study that were a bit graphic.

 

God bless, and please look to Our Lady as your model for purity and chastity. Not sure how to interpret Her? Earnestly pray and ask Her and She will guide you. Also look to the guardian of Her purity, the symbolic guardian of the new paradise, St. Joseph. Reading the lives of the saints is invaluable in enlightening and inspiring one to heroically fight the good fight, especially on the topic of modesty which is so critical today.

 

 

Mary, purest model of modesty, pray for us!

 

In the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary,

 

Friar John Paul

thank you for this post, Friar John Paul! :) I was encouraged by it and I agree about looking to Our Blessed Mother. She is the perfect example of modesty :)

 

God bless!

[MarysLittleFlower]

Actually the reason why they had confessionals was so the priest could not see the people.

 

 

One day Padre Pio's spiritual director reproached him for his harsh conduct. He replied: "I could obey you, but each time it is Jesus who tells me how I am to deal with people."

He also said "I beg you not to criticize me by invoking charity, because the greatest charity is to deliver souls held fast by Satan in order to win them over to Christ."

 

SOURCE:Rev. Fr. Jean, O.F.M., CAP. http://www.fatima.or...jv_jun02pg1.asp

 

Indeed, I wouldn't criticize St Padre Pio, because it wasn't just his opinion. He knew what each particular person needed.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I don’t teachings that make women feel like their bodies are stumbling blocks for men, that they must “save” men from lust by covering up. It’s not healthy for them and it’s not healthy for men, instead of being taught to take responsibility for their thoughts and actions men can just blame women for not being modest. Besides modesty is about much more than how much clothes women wear.  You could be covered up from head to toe and still not be a modest person if all you think about is how virtuous and modest you are. Women shouldn’t be ashamed to wear attractive clothing that makes them feel beautiful.

 

I don't think it's necessary to show a lot of skin to be beautiful. Mary is beautiful and she only shows her face, hands and feet.

 

I don't think the point here is that men should blame women. The point is more like - men are responsible for their thoughts, but women should be careful also to not introduce this thought-battle into a guy's mind, where they have to struggle against it. That is not a charitable thing to do.

 

I agree that modesty is more than clothing. But it does include it as well, - I mean it's possible for clothing to be immodest.

[MarysLittleFlower]

You know how hard it is to follow those gosh darn "standards" in the gosh darn south of Louisiana? No. It's not hard. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. I run. I work out. I work. I am today's woman and I can't do everything in a skirt and mid-length sleeved shirts that reach up however high they say I must. We have already gone over this: the sources are questionable, priests are sometimes wrong, and modesty is more than a set of standards.

/endrant

 

I agree that modesty is not just about clothing, but I do think that clothing is included...

 

At the end of the day, I'd rather trust a priest than our culture :)

 

I live in the city... it's been really hot here the past week. I don't have a car and I walk everywhere. Sometimes it's been so hot as to be nearly unbearable, especially when walking around for a long time downtown. But I don't think that it would be any better in a lower cut top, it's more the fabric that matters.. and the skirts actually help cause they're lighter than jeans and most pantaloons. Wearing sleeves does make it hotter but - it's okay, I mean nuns wear their habits and priests wear black or cassocks and people have dressed in this sort of way (even in Southern Italy and other really warm climates) for centuries. :)

Edited May 11, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[EmilyAnn]

I don't think the point here is that men should blame women. The point is more like - men are responsible for their thoughts, but women should be careful also to not introduce this thought-battle into a guy's mind, where they have to struggle against it. That is not a charitable thing to do.

This is the attitude that contributes to rape culture and slut-shaming. Men cannot help themselves, therefore women are responsible for controlling them by covering themselves. And when a woman gets assaulted, it's her fault because she tempted him. 

 

Saying that women need to cover themselves to stop men from lusting is objectification, plain and simple. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

This is the attitude that contributes to rape culture and silly sally-shaming. Men cannot help themselves, therefore women are responsible for controlling them by covering themselves. And when a woman gets assaulted, it's her fault because she tempted him. 

 

Saying that women need to cover themselves to stop men from lusting is objectification, plain and simple. 

 

I'm sorry but you are saying something different than what I said.

 

I didn't say "men cannot help themselves". I said that men are responsible if they consent to sin (any sin, just like any human being is responsible). 

 

However, we shouldn't present an occasion of sin to others, which is also a sin. 

 

I am certain this is the Catholic teaching and it was explained by a very knowledgeable and holy priest. It's not just something I'm making up. It's not saying that men can't help themselves. It's talking about just being charitable to others. In no way does it contribute to rape culture.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[AudreyGrace]

Modesty is not about clothing. It reflects the virtue of purity which encompasses purity of body, intellect, and soul. CCC 2524 says, "The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject." Now, I'm not suggesting here that we should be culturally relative in what is to be considered modest. "Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate, (CCC 2525). As each of us are appointed to share in Christ's threefold mission as priest, prophet, and king by rite of our Baptism (Christifideles Laici 14), we must first from within purify ourselves and then consecrate the world we live in to God. This, with prayer and sacramental grace, will bring about a culture where men and women do not fearfully live in a manner that anxiously presupposes original sin to manifest itself in another person, but instead has faith in the glory of the Resurrection, which includes the raised appreciative beauty of the human body. "I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." (John 16:33). So perhaps we should spend less time measuring the hems of our necklines and spend more time fostering an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. Only by having the personal encounter with Him will our efforts towards living a virtuous life bear fruit and be successful. "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have and if I deliver my body that I may glory, but not have love, I gain nothing." (1Cor 13:2-3). 

 

[EmilyAnn]

I'm sorry but you are saying something different than what I said.

 

I didn't say "men cannot help themselves". I said that men are responsible if they consent to sin (any sin, just like any human being is responsible). 

 

However, we shouldn't present an occasion of sin to others, which is also a sin. 

 

I am certain this is the Catholic teaching and it was explained by a very knowledgeable and holy priest. It's not just something I'm making up. It's not saying that men can't help themselves. It's talking about just being charitable to others. In no way does it contribute to rape culture.

I didn't say that is what you said. I said that is the attitude that leads to such thinking. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and the quotes! I agree that modesty is more than clothing... I do think it also affects clothing... in a way that there is modest and immodest clothing out there. Then there's also the heart, which is something that's not talked about as much maybe because we can't really comment on that  regarding others - we can just comment about clothing, etc. That's my interpretation at least. 

 

I also agree that we shouldn't be so preoccupied with it all that we forget to grow in our relationship with Jesus. However, I find that it doesn't have to be either/or... I mean, there was a time I didn't dress modestly at all, but I was a Christian and had a relationship with Jesus. Eventually though, I began to feel uncomfortable with some fashions and He gave me a desire to be more modest. So for me, it's something to do with Jesus too, not just about measuring necklines. Sometimes when I'm trying to figure it out, I think I do get confused and lost in all these ideas, cause I'm still trying to figure it out... but I try to follow the "Mary-like standards of modesty" given elsewhere on this thread and this has given me more peace in terms of modesty, where I don't have to worry about it, and helps me to feel closer to Our Blessed Mother. Still learning here but I'm glad that eventually this is at least a topic that i began thinking more about.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I didn't say that is what you said. I said that is the attitude that leads to such thinking. 

 

Okay. I would disagree... Since I believe that sin involves the will, I find it quite a jump to go from saying "men are responsible" to "men are not responsible". Since those two things are opposite of one another... to me the point about not being a temptation to others, is just about charity: it's just a kind thing to do. 

[EmilyAnn]

Okay. I would disagree... Since I believe that sin involves the will, I find it quite a jump to go from saying "men are responsible" to "men are not responsible". Since those two things are opposite of one another... to me the point about not being a temptation to others, is just about charity: it's just a kind thing to do. 

The problem is there are two contradictory lines of thinking. You say "men are responsible" and then go on to say "but women need to cover up to stop men from lusting". Dressing modestly should be first and foremost about one's own dignity and respect for oneself yet this is never mentioned in these discussions. It's always about women being lusted after and that is wrong. As I have said, it is objectifying. You should not be thinking when you dress "am I going to be lusted after?". You should be thinking "am I dressing with dignity and self-respect?". Making modesty about how much of one's body is covered is a denigration of the virtue. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

The problem is there are two contradictory lines of thinking. You say "men are responsible" and then go on to say "but women need to cover up to stop men from lusting". Dressing modestly should be first and foremost about one's own dignity and respect for oneself yet this is never mentioned in these discussions. It's always about women being lusted after and that is wrong. As I have said, it is objectifying. You should not be thinking when you dress "am I going to be lusted after?". You should be thinking "am I dressing with dignity and self-respect?". Making modesty about how much of one's body is covered is a denigration of the virtue. 

 

I think those two things are related... modesty guards dignity by preventing others from objectifying us, by lusting. At least that's been my understanding.

 

I don't think it's contradictory... because I'm not saying that women are responsible for the men *choosing* the sin. Men are responsible for choosing the sin, if they choose it. But before they choose it, there's a whole battle going on in their minds. My point is that the women are responsible for bringing this battle to their minds if they dress in a way that causes lust. If they dress modestly and the guy still lusts, then he was looking for it and the woman didn't do anything. Also, some women might be immodest on purpose, and others in ignorance, I guess that would affect culpability. But the basic premise: that we shouldn't present occasions of sin - I think that's the Catholic teaching. Women are not helping themselves or the men if they dress immodestly: the men find themselves in an occasion of sin even if they're trying hard to live chastely, and the women are putting themselves in a position where they are being objectified... 

Edited May 11, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

It's kind of like... leading an alcoholic to a bar. They alcoholic still makes his own choice to drink or not. But you've made it possible for him to choose it, because of you. If you hadn't lead him to the bar, he would not have had to fight through this decision (whichever one he chooses to make).

 

(I'm not saying guys are like alcoholics when it comes to chastity! just making an example).

 

In the same way - if I don't dress immodestly... then the guy who sees me won't sin because of what I'm wearing, but if I do, he might have to battle a temptation (free will choosing the outcome) and that's placing him in danger. It's actually placing him in danger of possibly offending God mortally and potentially going to hell, if he doesn't repent. Yes it's his choice but if I had not worn that outift, nothing would have happened in the first place. The battle can't ever be lost if there's no battle. It's nothing to do with "women's rights" it's about salvation of souls. I'd rather wear that extra fabric in hot weather.

 

I'm talking about fashions that could lead to lustful thoughts.

 

Sometimes temptation is allowed as a way to help us demonstrate virtue by rejecting the temptation, but temptation should not come through me and through my choice.

Edited May 11, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower