The Ppc

[krissylou]

Oooh, with what you've learned from your most recent Carmel visit, I think you'd be a great novice mistress.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

Yes, you'd be an outstanding novice mistress. You are both holy and have also experienced the difficulties of religious life. If we find ourselves with too many members going around crying holy tears all the time, the community has ME as a balance..

Not to mention, we need as many members as possible who actually know what religious life is like!

Speaking of Carmelite tendencies, holy tears and ecstacies may be freely engaged in, as long as they are not like that saint, whose name my mind refuses to remember, that used to wake up all her Sisters at night to share her ecstacies. Maybe if she had asked her Sisters beforehand if they wanted to be woken up, that would be different, but she just strikes me as rude, not holy.

Lately my sleep cycle has been totally messed up, and it not only makes me cranky, but I can't get anything done, because I'm asleep during the day, and awake at night. I should just move to Australia immediately, because my body is currently living in the same time zone as Australia.

One important rule of the Community is that Sisters having ecstacies must do so without disturbing other Sisters, especially me. I wear ear plugs, but I am still a VERY light sleeper. I'll wake up if I even THINK you are about to make noise, however spiritual. And, if I go without sleep, first I get very cranky, then I get even more sick than usual. So, my request is not to due to my feelings about St. Therese, and others of her ilk, but due to genuine health concerns. When the weather is good, I may live in a hermitage, so that my health issues don't interfere with the religious expression of my Sisters. But, in the winter, for safety reasons, I plan to live inside, plus, for some reason I don't entirely understand, I REALLY would LOVE a cell. I've finally reached a place in my life where to give up material possessions and to wear a habit and to live in a very spare cell would not be giving up anything, but sounds like exactly what I want. Some young women hate the thought of cutting their hair--I think mine is just a pain, cut it off, please! However, my cell may need extra soundproofing, or be located at the end of the row. Plus, as I have mentioned before, it's really safer if I have my own bathroom so that I don't have to walk down a dark hall at night.

Note to Nunsense: Please do not read that last paragraph or my "cell-envy" as an indication that I am called to religious life. Obedience would be an enormous barrier, plus I have made a vow to my two chronically ill cats that I will take care of them, so where I go, my cats go. Period. I've made a vow and I refuse to break it. We won't even mention my health issues. Any religious community that would accept me as an active member should be immediately examined by the appropriate governing body for serious concerns as to whether it has lost its mind. Not to mention, that, if "Mr. Right" rode into the enclosure on his steed, I'd be gone immediately, without looking back. No question. I have come to understand and respect my fellow VS'ers who are called to be brides of Christ, but I am not one of them.

So, with that totally unrelated, and very self-centered speech--Nunsense, you are heartily welcomed, and I LOVE your new name!

Edited September 10, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[krissylou]

We already discussed that when it comes to food preferences we're going with the Benedictine Rule of "making two main dishes -- if you don't like one, eat the other. If you don't like them both, you're too picky. Offer it up."

When it comes to real intolerances -- allergies, celiac disease, or the like -- I would like to decree that Sister Cook can just magically handle everything. It is not even a strain on her. When I was a kid I had a book of stories about the saints and one of the saints was a kitchen maid and one morning had to choose between going to daily Mass and getting the bread baked, which was her job. She went to Mass. Kitchen maids are kind of supposed to be doing their job in the kitchen, so she was likely going to be coming home to a heap of trouble. But no worries, she came back to find the bread out of the oven and piping hot, as some angels came down to help her out.

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/angel.gif[/img]

Those angels are helping Sister Cook out all the time. Any concerns about cross-contamination are handled impeccably. It simply isn't a problem.

It would be very very hard for a community to be able to handle a member with these dietary requirements. But, thanks to the angels helping out Sister Cook, we can do so just fine.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1284253301' post='2172088']
We already discussed that when it comes to food preferences we're going with the Benedictine Rule of "making two main dishes -- if you don't like one, eat the other. If you don't like them both, you're too picky. Offer it up."

When it comes to real intolerances -- allergies, celiac disease, or the like -- I would like to decree that Sister Cook can just magically handle everything. It is not even a strain on her. When I was a kid I had a book of stories about the saints and one of the saints was a kitchen maid and one morning had to choose between going to daily Mass and getting the bread baked, which was her job. She went to Mass. Kitchen maids are kind of supposed to be doing their job in the kitchen, so she was likely going to be coming home to a heap of trouble. But no worries, she came back to find the bread out of the oven and piping hot, as some angels came down to help her out.

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/angel.gif[/img]

Those angels are helping Sister Cook out all the time. Any concerns about cross-contamination are handled impeccably. It simply isn't a problem.

It would be very very hard for a community to be able to handle a member with these dietary requirements. But, thanks to the angels helping out Sister Cook, we can do so just fine.
[/quote]

Well, in my new community, we take turns as Sister Cook, a different sister each day, so everyone gets to practice mortification at some time or another through the cooking of others, and they will all have something to offer up when it's my turn! I just can't cook.

One sister told me that when she was cook, she was advised that a particular sister couldn't eat fish (and we eat a lot of that), so she had to make other things for her. What no one remembered to tell her was that the only fish this sister could eat was salmon, and she loved it. Every week there was always a donation of a really nice salmon fillet, but of course this sister cook didn't give any to this other sister but made her something else instead. The sister who missed out on her favorite dish for years, never said anything! Talk about offering up something in secret!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1284253301' post='2172088']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/angel.gif[/img]

Those angels are helping Sister Cook out all the time. Any concerns about cross-contamination are handled impeccably. It simply isn't a problem.

It would be very very hard for a community to be able to handle a member with these dietary requirements. But, thanks to the angels helping out Sister Cook, we can do so just fine.
[/quote]

Do you know an employment agency or something where I could find an angel "Sister Cook?" I would be very nice to her, and give her lots of appreciation. If she wanted to go to Mass (assuming angels go to Mass) or if there was some important angel meeting in heaven she couldn't miss, I would totally understand.

But, especially when you don't love cooking to begin with, it's hard for me to live alone and eat well. Even getting to the grocery store is tough for me--and if I did cook, the energy it would take me to make dinner would use up my "energy quota" for the day (which is pretty small if standing up is involved). There are some services (really intended for those on diets) that provide three fresh meals a day, but they are also pretty expensive.

I'min also desperately need of a "housekeeper angel" but I don't want to seem like I'm being greedy. One thing that sounds heavenly about living in community is that meals would be provided (although I realize that community has its downsides, too).

BTW--The PPC never expected those in need of special diets to just "offer it up" if the food offered would make the Sister ill or wouldn't meet special medical needs, such as diabetes. I think we were mostly kidding in that conversaton, as one of our ongoing, but FAR from serious, "Carmelites" versus "Normal People" debates--like the time I threatened to glue pictures of St. Thomas Aquinas with nonremovable glue, over every available free wall and ceiling surface of the cells of Carmelites if they kept me awake at night with holy ecstacies, or wanted too many pictures or statues of St. Therese in the monastery. However, the "Sister Cook" we have dreamed up for the PPC--able to make healthy, outstanding meals, with a lot of variety, and also be a gifted pastry cook, all the while without luxury or ostentation, would either have to be an angel or a saint.

Edited September 13, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nunsense]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284348725' post='2172524']
Do you know an employment agency or something where I could find an angel "Sister Cook?" I would be very nice to her, and give her lots of appreciation. If she wanted to go to Mass (assuming angels go to Mass) or if there was some important angel meeting in heaven she couldn't miss, I would totally understand.

But, especially when you don't love cooking to begin with, it's hard for me to live alone and eat well. Even even getting to the grocery store is tough for me sometimes--and if I did, the energy it would take to make dinner would use up my "energy quota" for the day (which is pretty small if standing up is involved). There are some services (really intended for those on diets) that provide three fresh meals a day, but they are also pretty expensive.

I also desperately need of a "housekeeper angel" but I don't want to seem like I'm being greedy. One thing that sounds heavenly about living in community is that meals would be provided (although I realize that community has its downsides, too).

BTW--The PPC never expected those in need of special diets to just "offer it up" if the food offered would make the Sister ill or wouldn't meet special medical needs, such as diabetes. I think we were mostly kidding in that conversaton, as one of our ongoing, but FAR from serious, "Carmelites" versus "Normal People" debates--like the time I threatened to glue pictures of St. Thomas Aquinas with nonremovable glue, over every available free wall and ceiling surface of the cells of Carmelites if they kept me awake at night with holy ecstacies, or wanted too many pictures or statues of St. Therese in the monastery. However, the "Sister Cook" we have dreamed up for the PPC--able to make healthy, outstanding meals, with a lot of variety, and also be a gifted pastry cook, all the while without luxury or ostentation, would either have to be an angel or a saint.
[/quote]


One of the sisters in my new community used to be a pastry chef, and she makes the most delicious things with pastry. I made a quiche the other day in an attempt to teach myself how to cook, and the filling was beautiful but I definitely need lessons on making pastry, so I will have to ask Sr Pastry about this when I go back.

As for the ecstasies, I try to keep mine very quiet indeed, and do all my sobbing into a handkerchief, so don't worry about noise. I often wondered how St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi got away with all her shenanigans, but maybe she was an excellent pastry cook during the day?

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284348940' post='2172528']
One of the sisters in my new community used to be a pastry chef, and she makes the most delicious things with pastry. I made a quiche the other day in an attempt to teach myself how to cook, and the filling was beautiful but I definitely need lessons on making pastry, so I will have to ask Sr Pastry about this when I go back.

As for the ecstasies, I try to keep mine very quiet indeed, and do all my sobbing into a handkerchief, so don't worry about noise. I often wondered how St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi got away with all her shenanigans, but maybe she was an excellent pastry cook during the day?

[/quote]

I don't think it is one of the "official signs that you have picked the right community" but having a Sister who used to be a pastry chef is sounds wonderful!!!! Quiche is difficult. I used to make quiche a lot, and while I was fine with the filling, I never quite figured out how to keep the crust from getting soggy.

It's amazing how different siblings can be. My (blood) sister has a way with pie crust that I have never mastered. She didn't get it from my mother--but she definitely has the "knack." She has now passed the gift on to her daughter (my niece).

And, it's funny how my brain manages to keep forgetting the name of St. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi. I will give the Church the benefit of the doubt that she was well worthy of sainthood, but I suspect she may have been a difficult Sister to live with. However, since, as far as I know (and I don't know much), she was not martyred by her Sisters in religion, if she wasn't a pastry chef, she had some other "gift" that saved her, thus the phrase, "saving grace."

Plus, I don't know if you saw all the fun pictures, but a hermitage, even for part of the time, is also an option. For myself, I think I'd love a hermitage in the woods surrounded by deer, and chipmunks, and all manner of wild animals. I used to live in a house in a very wooded area, and I loved it. I'm not so sure about a hermitage when the weather got very cold or icy, but for most of the year I'd love it.

Edited September 14, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Nunsense]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284437086' post='2172918']
I don't think it is one of the "official signs that you have picked the right community" but having a Sister who used to be a pastry chef is sounds wonderful!!!! Quiche is difficult. I used to make quiche a lot, and while I was fine with the filling, I never quite figured out how to keep the crust from getting soggy.

It's amazing how different siblings can be. My (blood) sister has a way with pie crust that I have never mastered. She didn't get it from my mother--but she definitely has the "knack." She has now passed the gift on to her daughter (my niece).

And, it's funny how my brain manages to keep forgetting the name of St. Mary Magdalene de Pazzi. I will give the Church the benefit of the doubt that she was well worthy of sainthood, but I suspect she may have been a difficult Sister to live with. However, since, as far as I know (and I don't know much), she was not martyred by her Sisters in religion, if she wasn't a pastry chef, she had some other "gift" that saved her, thus the phrase, "saving grace."

Plus, I don't know if you saw all the fun pictures, but a hermitage, even for part of the time, is also an option. For myself, I think I'd love a hermitage in the woods surrounded by deer, and chipmunks, and all manner of wild animals. I used to live in a house in a very wooded area, and I loved it. I'm not so sure about a hermitage when the weather got very cold or icy, but for most of the year I'd love it.
[/quote]

My recipe said to cook the shell first, so I did, but I think I could have cooked it a little longer. The main problem was that I was in a hurry and didn't put the douh back into the fridge/freezer for an hour before rolling out and I think that matters!

I lived in a hermitage in the NJ woods for two months and loved it - but I missed praying the Office in community. If we can do that in the PPC then it sounds perfect!

[krissylou]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284348725' post='2172524']
Do you know an employment agency or something where I could find an angel "Sister Cook?" I would be very nice to her, and give her lots of appreciation. If she wanted to go to Mass (assuming angels go to Mass) or if there was some important angel meeting in heaven she couldn't miss, I would totally understand.

But, especially when you don't love cooking to begin with, it's hard for me to live alone and eat well. Even getting to the grocery store is tough for me--and if I did cook, the energy it would take me to make dinner would use up my "energy quota" for the day (which is pretty small if standing up is involved). There are some services (really intended for those on diets) that provide three fresh meals a day, but they are also pretty expensive.

I'min also desperately need of a "housekeeper angel" but I don't want to seem like I'm being greedy. One thing that sounds heavenly about living in community is that meals would be provided (although I realize that community has its downsides, too).

BTW--The PPC never expected those in need of special diets to just "offer it up" if the food offered would make the Sister ill or wouldn't meet special medical needs, such as diabetes. I think we were mostly kidding in that conversaton, as one of our ongoing, but FAR from serious, "Carmelites" versus "Normal People" debates--like the time I threatened to glue pictures of St. Thomas Aquinas with nonremovable glue, over every available free wall and ceiling surface of the cells of Carmelites if they kept me awake at night with holy ecstacies, or wanted too many pictures or statues of St. Therese in the monastery. However, the "Sister Cook" we have dreamed up for the PPC--able to make healthy, outstanding meals, with a lot of variety, and also be a gifted pastry cook, all the while without luxury or ostentation, would either have to be an angel or a saint.
[/quote]

Right, nobody would do that. Offering up the liver meatloaf is one thing. Anaphylactic shock is quite another.

I was thinking more along the lines of a community telling a would-be postulant with, say, celiac disease (which is HARD to work around!) "I'm sorry, we just cannot accommodate you. This won't work."

Which may be a regrettable necessity in real life, but with our Angel Kitchen Assistants we can indeed accommodate all of them.

\

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1284581738' post='2173541']
Right, nobody would do that. Offering up the liver meatloaf is one thing. Anaphylactic shock is quite another.

I was thinking more along the lines of a community telling a would-be postulant with, say, celiac disease (which is HARD to work around!) "I'm sorry, we just cannot accommodate you. This won't work."

Which may be a regrettable necessity in real life, but with our Angel Kitchen Assistants we can indeed accommodate all of them.

\
[/quote]

Very true.

And, unlike other Communities, the PPC has no age limits or health restrictions. (Early on, I nixed the idea of a psychological test, because I suspect that all of us may be just a wee bit crazy--especially those who would join a community like the PPC.) Even those with health issues have important ways they contribute to the Community. And, because of the generosity of our unkown "donor," medical bills are not an issue, and all members will have access to the best health care available.

[MarieLynn]

I have been reading this topic with interest over the months, and after much laughter and a lot of thought., I would like to apply to enter the Ppc's, as I feel they are the ideal Comminity for me, and my lack of talents.

If you need a Laundress, I would like to volunteer my services, as I looove washing!!!

If I am accepted, could I please have the name of Sister Sunlight Soap of the Blue Rinse?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MarieLynn' timestamp='1284608534' post='2173691']
I have been reading this topic with interest over the months, and after much laughter and a lot of thought., I would like to apply to enter the Ppc's, as I feel they are the ideal Comminity for me, and my lack of talents.

If you need a Laundress, I would like to volunteer my services, as I looove washing!!!

If I am accepted, could I please have the name of Sister Sunlight Soap of the Blue Rinse?
[/quote]

You sound like one of my sisters, we call her the laundry queen because 'laundry is her life' and she can get a stain out of anything!

I don't know the application process for the PPC but it sounds like Iggy has a lot of pull here - get on her good side!

That being said, I do wonder how the PPC governs itself and who can vote for what etc...... is it total anarchy or is there a plan??

[linnie]

I think that its basically planned anarchy.

Of course, we all only want the very best for each other, egos are never an issue, and perfect peace reigns always.


peace,

Sr. Benedicta of the Little Red Scooter, RN

Edited September 16, 2010 by linnie

[krissylou]

[quote name='MarieLynn' timestamp='1284608534' post='2173691']
If you need a Laundress, I would like to volunteer my services, as I looove washing!!!

If I am accepted, could I please have the name of Sister Sunlight Soap of the Blue Rinse?
[/quote]

Accepted immediately!!!

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1284647952' post='2173777']
Accepted immediately!!!
[/quote]

Agreed!!!!

Anyone who loves washing is already a saint. However, we promise not to martyr you so that that becomes fact.

At one time there was talk of a council to run the community. There will probably still be one.

One night in VS chat, a certain someone who is named after a saint whose feast day is July 31 (also her birthday) was made the Superior (she may be a mother sometimes, but not that kind)--I kinda like Prioress, myself--by a quorum of members (give or take five or six). She was elected unanimously and did not ask for the job, or even suggest herself as a candidate (apparently to conspire to be Superior is one of the worst sins you can commit). However, I cannot say more, because what happens in chat, stays in chat.

We thought it was only fitting that cloistered/semi-cloistered/active Catholic community, with a Benedictine/Carmelite/Dominican/Franciscan/Other charism, should have a Superior who is not Catholic. We're sure the local Bishop will be thrilled and accept us right away.

Plus, if Nunsense is novice mistress, there has to be SOMEONE to keep all the postulants from becoming Carmelites!! LOL Also, at minimum, the others on the council will represent each of the various charisms etc. However, all of this will not keep it from being an anarchy. So far, I don't think any reasonable (or even unreasonable) request has been turned down, except that there will be no pictures of St. Therese in the Library or anything allowed that disturbs the sleep of the Prioress. Books about St. Therese are perfectly acceptable.

There are many very important jobs still open, including that of choir director, and a few others that I can't think of right now because I know nothing about running a monastery--which apparently makes me the one most qualified for the job. (Ask the non-quorum, they elected me before I could even type "No.")

[Nunsense]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284650967' post='2173788']
Agreed!!!!

Anyone who loves washing is already a saint. However, we promise not to martyr you so that that becomes fact.

At one time there was talk of a council to run the community. There will probably still be one.

One night in VS chat, a certain someone who is named after a saint whose feast day is July 31 (also her birthday) was made the Superior (she may be a mother sometimes, but not that kind)--I kinda like Prioress, myself--by a quorum of members (give or take five or six). She was elected unanimously and did not ask for the job, or even suggest herself as a candidate (apparently to conspire to be Superior is one of the worst sins you can commit). However, I cannot say more, because what happens in chat, stays in chat.

We thought it was only fitting that cloistered/semi-cloistered/active Catholic community, with a Benedictine/Carmelite/Dominican/Franciscan/Other charism, should have a Superior who is not Catholic. We're sure the local Bishop will be thrilled and accept us right away.

Plus, if Nunsense is novice mistress, there has to be SOMEONE to keep all the postulants from becoming Carmelites!! LOL Also, at minimum, the others on the council will represent each of the various charisms etc. However, all of this will not keep it from being an anarchy. So far, I don't think any reasonable (or even unreasonable) request has been turned down, except that there will be no pictures of St. Therese in the Library or anything allowed that disturbs the sleep of the Prioress. Books about St. Therese are perfectly acceptable.

There are many very important jobs still open, including that of choir director, and a few others that I can't think of right now because I know nothing about running a monastery--which apparently makes me the one most qualified for the job. (Ask the non-quorum, they elected me before I could even type "No.")
[/quote]


Well, I don't know what kind of Prioress you are going to be because I haven't seen a copy of our Rule and Constitutions yet, but the Prioress where I am going takes everything to Chapter for a vote unless it is an emergency and there isn't time. Not all of my Carmels have been this way, but it is certainly a very loving way to do it - no opportunity for power to corrupt the one in charge.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1284684396' post='2173958']
Well, I don't know what kind of Prioress you are going to be because I haven't seen a copy of our Rule and Constitutions yet, but the Prioress where I am going takes everything to Chapter for a vote unless it is an emergency and there isn't time. Not all of my Carmels have been this way, but it is certainly a very loving way to do it - no opportunity for power to corrupt the one in charge.
[/quote]

I like that. You have obviously been called to somewhat unusual, but wonderful Carmel. I can see you are thriving already, just from your live-in. It's another illustration to me that there are many ways that God calls people live a life of service to him. And, while there may are some obviously "wrong" ways, there are an almost unlimited number of "right" ways because people have so many different gifts and needs.

A question that I should know, but don't, because I expect there is some difference in terminology between Orders. Who is the "chapter" in your Community? All the fully professed nuns or a smaller group? Is there a "council?" And, because Carmels, by definition, are to remain small, how does the hierarchy work? (If there is even a "usual" among Carmels.)

I have always worried about the effect on the community of the power of a Superior, and how it is exercised by each individual Superior.

Even assuming there is no actual corruption, or even such things as having "favorites," etc., in my working life, I experienced a number of effects of having a very strong person, however intelligent and sometimes wise, in charge for a long time. At the time she retired, my former boss had been in her job as the head of Research for 25 years, and the group grew from about 5 people to about 40-50 by the time she left. Two effects I noticed that had nothing to do with corruption. The first was that the manager, like anyone else, had things she was interested in, and things she was not. And, not surprisingly, the group tended to spend more time, energy, and training on the areas the manager found most interesting--since obviously, no one can do everything, particularly when it comes to Research. So, when the new boss came in, he found that the group was exceptionally strong in certain areas and skills, and weaker in others. Not mismanagement--just the effect of having one boss for so long.

The second, might be called mismanagement by some--but there were no bad intentions, it was more personal style. My former boss was very much a micromanager, and we were expected to consult her about virtually everything and get her approval. When the new boss came in, he was frustrated that we would ask him what he saw as unnecessary questions. He'd say, "You've been doing your job for 10 years, make a decision." Under the prior boss, if we made virtually any decision without asking, we would be called on the carpet for doing so. And, even when she approved something, she was so involved in so many details that, although her memory was incredible, sometimes she'd forget or change her mind regarding what she'd earlier approved, and we'd be called on the carpet anyway. I could easily see that happening if the Superior had a micromanager style. Personally, I felt that while we all benefited from her input (she was incredibly bright), the manager's style also kept people from learning to take on new responsibilities or introducing new ideas, and many of her employees lost self-confience, even if they were very skilled in their jobs.

So, I could see that there would be likely be unintended effects of a very strong Superior, even she was a truly holy, wonderful person, especially if the Superior was elected for life.

The PPC has no rules and constitutions, and probably never will, because when we get to the "hard decisions," such as how the Liturgy of the Hours would be chanted or sung, there are so many differences between Orders, and even the personal preferences of members, that to try to come to any kind of decision, no matter how flexible the rule, would probably be impossible. So, we have not addressed the truly difficult decisions, simply saying, "We'll work it out." That's a luxury an imaginary community has that a real Community doesn't have.

Heck, we have never even come up with the design of our chapel, except that it would have a cloistered portion. But, how exactly we would handle the fact that we would have both cloistered and non-cloistered members we've left to, "We'll work it out."

Despite the lack of a Rule and Constitutions, it's pretty clear that my "election" as Prioress was illegal and nonbinding. Beside the fact that we were far short of a quorum of members (however a member is defined), there is some question of whether one of those voting was under the influence of alcohol. LOL (I'm lying.) However, it WAS very late at night.

I suspect I would make a terrible Prioress in many ways. But, in a backhanded way, that almost makes me a good candidate, because I would have no option but to rely completely on God and my Sisters.

So far, it has been easy to take a role as one of the leaders, because, in an imaginary community where money is not a significant issue, the answer is virtually always "Yes." In some cases, it is a compromise "Yes" because some members have opposite needs and desires--but, so far, we've been able to come up with compromises that fill both sets of needs and desires.

So far, the only thing I am aware of that I have completely nixed (besides anything that interferes with my sleep) is having a very old Italian stone chapel as one of the chapels within the enclosure. Even if the donor approved the extremely high cost, I strongly suspect that the act of transplanting an old chapel stone by stone to some other location would take away what makes old stone chapels so wonderful, that is, the spirit and faith and prayers of all those who came before, that remains in very air of the chapel. Since we've pretty much decided that the community needs to be in North America and not in Italy for any number of good reasons (although the exact location has never been agreed on--or even discussed much), we have to create our own spirit and faith, and bring that to our chapels. Plus, having such a chapel could be perceived as an ostentation that would send the wrong message. If the chapel were about to be destroyed to build an office building, that might be a different matter. But, it's similar to when they moved the old Tower(?) Bridge (all I know is that it wasn't London Bridge) to Arizona--it just doesn't fit. I keep pushing simplicity, and architecture that is beautiful, without being overly modern or utilitarian, and fits the landscape, but I since I don't have any good examples of how that has been done in practice, we've never actually decided on the architecture, except that the Benedictines want a somewhat traditional cloister as part of the enclosure, and I heartily endorse that.

I've thought, in my spare moments, of drafting a post of the pros and cons of myself as superior, but I don't think anyone cares that much (and I'm not sure I do, either), and I suspect it's not necessary anyway. We'll find a way to make it work. Our Lady of Peace and St. Joseph are watching over us, and will make sure that the community's decisions are wise. (Random factoid: I actually searched the Internet and found a Rosary Center of our Lady of Peace and had L-C use it as the center of one of the Rosaries she made for me. It's gorgeous. For me, personally, I love the image of Our Lady of Peace--inner peace, peace in the community, and peace in the world.)

Edited September 17, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[TeresaBenedicta]

Awww, this thread reminds me of JT now.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1284701517' post='2174009']
Awww, this thread reminds me of JT now.
[/quote]


Yeah..... *sigh*

[Nunsense]

Mother Iggy - I think you make the perfect superior - maturity, experience and a deep love for Our Lord. And you are able to bring out the best in others. What more could anyone ask?

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1284692631' post='2173986']
A question that I should know, but don't, because I expect there is some difference in terminology between Orders. Who is the "chapter" in your Community? All the fully professed nuns or a smaller group? Is there a "council?" And, because Carmels, by definition, are to remain small, how does the hierarchy work? (If there is even a "usual" among Carmels.)
[/quote]

In Carmel, only the Solemnly Professed nuns can vote, and when they get together to vote, it is called a Chapter. In my community now, they have other, community meetings where a vote is not required, and the Simple Professed also attend these meetings. I think it is a nice way of being inclusive. When I was a visitor there, I did not participate in these meetings, since they were for the 'family' only. Different Carmels do this a little differently but similarly.

As for the 'hierarchy', once again, because of their autonomous nature, each Carmel lives this out slightly differently. I have been in Carmels where the Prioress is treated almost as a queen, with everyone standing every time she enters or leaves a room, kneeling when she speaks to one, etc. On the other hand, I have also been in Carmels where the Prioress is treated basically the same as any other member of the community, perhaps even as a 'servant' of the community in that she is ultimately responsible for making sure that everything and everyone is okay. The first way has the romance and tradition of hundreds of years but the second way actually seems to instil more love and less fear in everyone.

I think that being a Superior for a religious community is an awesome responsibility because God will ultimately hold that person accountable for all that was done in His name for the souls under her care. She should be very holy, and strive for this more than anything else. After all, she walks a razor's edge where she could fall into vanity, pride, ambition and power if she doesn't remember that she is there to serve God first and then all of her daughters. I think it was St Benedict who said that a superior should strive be loved more than feared. In the Rule of St Albert, the attitude of the religious is also addressed, saying that they should serve their Prior[ess] in humble reverence. I think that the danger for communities who are 'too liberal', the reverence part gets forgotten. So it is a fine balance on both sides of the equation.

[quote]I have always worried about the effect on the community of the power of a Superior, and how it is exercised by each individual Superior.

Even assuming there is no actual corruption, or even such things as having "favorites," etc., in my working life, I experienced a number of effects of having a very strong person, however intelligent and sometimes wise, in charge for a long time. At the time she retired, my former boss had been in her job as the head of Research for 25 years, and the group grew from about 5 people to about 40-50 by the time she left. Two effects I noticed that had nothing to do with corruption. The first was that the manager, like anyone else, had things she was interested in, and things she was not. And, not surprisingly, the group tended to spend more time, energy, and training on the areas the manager found most interesting--since obviously, no one can do everything, particularly when it comes to Research. So, when the new boss came in, he found that the group was exceptionally strong in certain areas and skills, and weaker in others. Not mismanagement--just the effect of having one boss for so long.

The second, might be called mismanagement by some--but there were no bad intentions, it was more personal style. My former boss was very much a micromanager, and we were expected to consult her about virtually everything and get her approval. When the new boss came in, he was frustrated that we would ask him what he saw as unnecessary questions. He'd say, "You've been doing your job for 10 years, make a decision." Under the prior boss, if we made virtually any decision without asking, we would be called on the carpet for doing so. And, even when she approved something, she was so involved in so many details that, although her memory was incredible, sometimes she'd forget or change her mind regarding what she'd earlier approved, and we'd be called on the carpet anyway. I could easily see that happening if the Superior had a micromanager style. Personally, I felt that while we all benefited from her input (she was incredibly bright), the manager's style also kept people from learning to take on new responsibilities or introducing new ideas, and many of her employees lost self-confience, even if they were very skilled in their jobs.

So, I could see that there would be likely be unintended effects of a very strong Superior, even she was a truly holy, wonderful person, especially if the Superior was elected for life.[/quote]

As in anything, this is a real danger in religious life as well. I have seen communities where the nuns are almost like children because the Prioress has done all of their thinking for them for so long. This is especially the case when a superior has been in office for a long time with complete power... yes.

A truly greater teacher/leader/boss is one who brings out the full potential of those being served, and helps them to achieve individuality within community. not an easy job, but I have seen some good superiors who work hard at this.

[quote]The PPC has no rules and constitutions, and probably never will, because when we get to the "hard decisions," such as how the Liturgy of the Hours would be chanted or sung, there are so many differences between Orders, and even the personal preferences of members, that to try to come to any kind of decision, no matter how flexible the rule, would probably be impossible. So, we have not addressed the truly difficult decisions, simply saying, "We'll work it out." That's a luxury an imaginary community has that a real Community doesn't have.
[/quote]

Actually I think that my new community tries to do this as well. It takes a lot longer because they tend to take things 'into their hearts to ponder' for awhile before they make any decisions. They will discuss and then go away and do research (the librarian even likes to use the Internet for research on some issues) before coming back to discuss some more. Finally they all pray about it before taking a vote. I haven't seen it in action myself, but this is what I have been told by different sisters.


[quote]
I've thought, in my spare moments, of drafting a post of the pros and cons of myself as superior, but I don't think anyone cares that much (and I'm not sure I do, either), and I suspect it's not necessary anyway. We'll find a way to make it work. Our Lady of Peace and St. Joseph are watching over us, and will make sure that the community's decisions are wise. (Random factoid: I actually searched the Internet and found a Rosary Center of our Lady of Peace and had L-C use it as the center of one of the Rosaries she made for me. It's gorgeous. For me, personally, I love the image of Our Lady of Peace--inner peace, peace in the community, and peace in the world.)
[/quote]

I think that having you as a superior is a very good idea because you have made it clear that you are not discerning religious life. This means you won't be leaving to enter anywhere, abandoning the PPC to its fate As long as you don't give in to your desires to run away after some online fight, I can't think of any better superior! Next time you feel so inclined, remember your responsibilities here (imagined or not) and hang tough.

I think that I will have to withdraw my request to be the Novice Mistress though, knowing as I do that my term will be short lived when I enter Carmel. Therefore I would like to nominate Theresa Benedicta for the Office! She can form the newbies as they arrive at phatmass VS and discern their talents and abilities before assigning them to some useful work! You, as superior, would have to approve all of her choices of course.

PPC forever