To Slap Or Not To Slap?

[Selah]

Is what necessary? I made a mistake, so I admitted it. *shrug* I wasn't being a smart arse.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' timestamp='1283904896' post='2169400']
I guess it's just me, but physically punishing a child is something only a parent should be allowed to do. I hardly doubt this kid was acting with complete malice, and even so he's just a kid.

Say what you want but that's not the Priests place to be striking anyone, let alone a minor.

Again that's the parents job not a "relative" strangers. I know I'd probably get my hide tanned by parents if I did that, but I also know they'd be incensed if someone else laid a hand on their child regardless of the situation.
[/quote]


[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1283905504' post='2169408']
You make good points. I have to mention, though, that we do not know how old the "young man" is. He could be 16, or 18, or in his early 20's.
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[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1283908179' post='2169467']
"Child" and "kid" - the article said "young man". He was probably between 16 and 20.
[/quote]

Those were my thoughts exactly, HCF. I'd be mad if someone slapped my[i] child[/i], I'd probably go ballistic. But the way I read this article was that this was a young adult, late teens or early 20s. Someone who definitely should have known better and a fully appropriate situation for a smack. Were it a child I am sure the priest would have stopped what he was doing and had some sort of grave counsel with him instead of slapping him and hauling his arse out of Church. I'd be mortified at that behavior from my child, and doubly so if my child were an adult.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='jai-me ' timestamp='1283901681' post='2169366']
I can't believe I'm the only waffler here

I guess I can
[/quote]


[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1283902028' post='2169371']
you're such a hippie...

srsly.. you're like 1/2 french aren't you?

no offense to the french...
[/quote]

I've got to side with Jai-me on this one. (Sorry for the misspelling--I'm trying to get around the fiddler.)

Yes, I grew up in Northern California, but the cultural environment I was raised in, that of avoiding physical punishment if at all possible, has nothing to do with being a "hippie" or with parents being "lax."

In the town where I grew up, roughly a quarter to a third of the population was Jewish. And, most of my friends had parents who had lost at least one close family member, if not whole families, in Hitler's concentration camps. Some of the parents of my friends had survived the concentration camps themselves.

I may be wrong, but, I think one result of their tramatic experiences growing up, was that in the town where I grew up, even among parents who were not Jewish, there was a generally very strong feeling about avoiding the use of physical force or discipline, if at all possible. Obviously, not all parents felt this way, but I'd guess the majority did.

However, this general attitude of trying to avoid physical means, except as a last resort, did not result in children being allowed to misbehave--not at all, especially in school and during religious worship. For example, another very strong value in the community was the importance of education. I remember very little misbehavior in the classroom growing up. Parents taught their children that education was extremely important, and to show respect for their teachers, and with few exceptions, they succeeded. (My father was on the public school board for most of the years I was in school, so I had access to additional information that backed up my personal impression. Children in the public schools I attended were very well-behaved.)

The local Catholic grade school also was excellent, and there were a number of Catholic high schools and colleges close by (although not as many as where I live now, near Chicago).

Even in high school, my fellow public school students were mostly very well-behaved. And, I grew up in a suburb of San Francisco, which even then, could not be described as conservative or "straight"--with all the various meanings of that word. San Francisco was definitely "sex, drugs, and rock and roll." My upbringing was not "sheltered", but we were still brought up to be well-behaved.

However, it was also a very different time than today, which obviously played a big role.

Still, at least to me, it was a lesson that, if they choose to, parents could raise their children to behave in school and in public, while avoiding physical discipline if at all possible. In the public schools I attended, teachers were not allowed to use physical discipline on a child, but because of parental influence (and because we had great teachers whom the parents respected, and taught their children to respect), discipline was rarely an issue.

I think it's harder today. However, in my own family, my niece and nephew have been raised with almost no physical discipline, but there is no doubt that, in their home, the parents are in charge. Yet, both my niece and nephew adore their parents. The parents have set specific, tough standards for their children of what they expect in behavior, and in what is expected of them in school, both in behavior and grades--not unrealistic goals, but specific goals that are enforced. At the same time, they have shown their children lots and lots of love. Both their children are growing up to be very self-confident (although not unrealisticly so), and from my vantage point, I think the main reason for that is that my niece and nephew realize deep down that, despite their parents not being perfect, my sister and BIL would die for their kids, if necessary. I am in awe sometimes of my sister's ability to both love her children unconditionally, and, at the same time, set high expectations for them that are enforced. I don't know if I would have been nearly as good a parent as my sister is.

Back to the main point--My general tendency to try to avoid physical discipline of children, and physical violence in general, is come by honestly, and not due to being a "hippie" or growing up in Northern California, but the very specific cultural environment in which I was raised. For all I know, a child growing up two towns away from me could have grown up in a very different environment.

Obviously, as a kid, I thought every town was just like mine, but, particularly after moving to the Midwest, I've found most of my peers grew up in "cultures" very different than mine, and still became responsible, honest, well-educated, successful adults. Even without being a parent myself, I've come to realize that there is no, one, "magic" way to raise a child.

I don't apologize for my point of view about trying to avoid, if possible, slapping children (or adults), even if that point of view it isn't necessarily the norm. But, the reason my posts have so many caveats (or at least I hope they do) is that I have come to realize that every parent, child, and community is different. And other "cultures," even if they have very different values than the one I grew up in, result in wonderful, well-behaved, respectful children.

I'm also with Selah. Assuming I was there (and in this particular case, we don't know how old the "young man" was, but I have been assuming that his parents weren't there), I would stop my child--even a teenager--from desecrating the Eucharist. But, I would try to avoid slapping the child, if at all possible. When a parent slaps a minor, I don't see it as simply an act of disrespect, but of physical discipline. But that's just me--I understand that others see it differently. To me, it would be different if I slapped an adult--that's more an act of disrespect. But, particularly in terms of physically slapping a minor, I think that as a parent I would be angry at any adult who did that to my child, even a priest--especially a priest. I expect a priest to be able to enforce discipline without hitting people.

If the young man in this case was not a minor, I still would have preferred that the priest stop short of slapping the young man unless there was no other way to stop his behavior.

Edited September 8, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Johnny]

I'm a "young man," (early 20's) if I ever did that I would hope the Priest would respond the same way. That's blaspheming our Lord. I applaud this Priest.

[TeresaBenedicta]

Seems appropriate in the situation.

Had it happened in the USA? I'm not so sure... as sensitive as citizens are here, there'd probably be some sort of law suit following.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1283893074' post='2169302']
Sorry, but what kind of a question is this? No one is asking if it is ever okay for a priest to slap a layperson period, but if it is okay for a priest (or any Catholic actually) to use force against [i]anyone[/i] he sees desecrating the Eucharist.
[/quote]

sorry, i thought it was a decent question. the question was whether priests have the right to slap people/etc in this situation, other situations or no situations. so i was posing, would the reverse be true. Icey responded best i think, that if you were slapping a priest for a grave offense he commited rather than just because he is a priest, it can be ok.



Semper Catholic is actually mirroring my thoughts on the issue. Were I to be catholic, I can totally see parents whupping a kid for this kind of offense (heck, Id give my theoretical kid a piece of my mind if he was this offensive to anyone's culture or religion) but i think the priest might have stepped over the line.
this is assuming it was a pre teen kid doing the deed, if it was a teenage/young adult boy doing it, then go priest! more people should be slapped when they cross lines like this.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1283907757' post='2169457']
What cannot be forgotten is that throwing a Host to the floor is an act of Blasphemy and that Blasphemy is worse and more grave than murder.
[/quote]

see that weirds me out a bit. I imagine Jesus would rather take an insult to his own person, than see one of his flock gunned down.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1283910510' post='2169502']
see that weirds me out a bit. I imagine Jesus would rather take an insult to his own person, than see one of his flock gunned down.
[/quote]

Christ whipped people for similar offenses. Good night.

[Tridenteen]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1283905808' post='2169413']
I think there is a wide chasm between a slap, which could be argued as righteous anger; and advocating the croutons beat out of him.

The bridge of this chasm is not zealousness, but maturity.

Get some.
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JMJ
Sorry if I got you so upset. I tend to get upset when the Creator of the World is treated disrepectfully, and a person intentionally sins mortally, and endangers his soul. I know it is getting too worked up, but I can't help it sometimes. Obviously maturity is important, but people can stay at home and twiddle their thumbs while being mature, zealous people often go and get it done, metaphorically speaking. Kind of like with the Crusades, several people wanted to sit back and think about it, being very mature, and the zealous people went out and defended Christendom from the Moslems.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1283907298' post='2169443']
I just had a horrible thought. I hope this kid isn't the priest's son.
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[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1283907578' post='2169452']
I'm...confused at what you are referring to.
[/quote]

Going WAY back to Post #50, and giving the Spanish priest the benefit of the doubt, the idea that the misbehaving young man is the son of the priest is now more of a possibility since the Catholic church started allowing converted Episcopal/Anglican priests who are married with children to become Catholic priests.

There is a stereotype that "preacher's kids" or "PK's" are either very holy or "holy terrors." From my experience, there is at least a grain of truth in that stereotype.

Edited September 8, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Johnny]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1283910688' post='2169503']
Christ whipped people for similar offenses. Good night.
[/quote]
I agree. I don't know that just an average layperson should slap someone, but we should all have the backbone to speak out against this. The Priest, as the Spiritual Father of his flock has the authority to do this.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1283910688' post='2169503']
Christ whipped people for similar offenses. Good night.
[/quote]

I was referring to your statement about Blasphemy being more grave than murder, not whether or not the priest was acting according to Christ.

no need to be rude.

[dUSt]

In all seriousness, if another adult disciplines my child, instead of me... good.

I would like to think that I raised my children well enough so they would never need to be disciplined, but if they step out of line, I [b]want[/b] other adults to exercise their "adultness", and discipline a child. I was raised to respect elders, and I raise my children the same way.

I am also realistic, so know that I will not be around my kids every minute of their lives. I can only pray that there will be other adults around who are not afraid to discipline my kids--because kids need discipline. I make it a point to let my kid's friend's parents know that I expect them to be just as harsh on my child as they are their own. If slapping or spanking is justified, be my guest... actually, please do. I also make it clear to my kids that they should expect to be disciplined by other adults--so they know the consequences of their actions.

I ain't raising no punks.

[Slappo]

Those that are heavily against this...


You're lucky you don't live in the 1950's or earlier as a mere teacher had the authority to do much worse to a child for speaking out of line or swearing in the classroom...

If a teacher could smack a [u][b]child's[/b][/u] fingers for talking out of line, then surely a priest can slap a [u][b]young man[/b][/u] for desecration of Our Lord.


American (read Canada and USA) culture is weak and overly sensitive. Any corporal punishment that does not cause physical harm that in someway affects the overall health of a child or young adult should be permitted to an extent.

We're not talking about a priest roundhouse kicking someone or punching him in the face to break his nose. We're talking about a priest giving the same action to a young man that a young lady would give him for offending her.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1283912062' post='2169525']
no need to be rude.
[/quote]

He was not being rude, he went to bed.

[Slappo]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1283912299' post='2169526']
In all seriousness, if another adult disciplines my child, instead of me... good.

I would like to think that I raised my children well enough so they would never need to be disciplined, but if they step out of line, I [b]want[/b] other adults to exercise their "adultness", and discipline a child. I was raised to respect elders, and I raise my children the same way.

I am also realistic, so know that I will not be around my kids every minute of their lives. I can only pray that there will be other adults around who are not afraid to discipline my kids--because kids need discipline. I make it a point to let my kid's friend's parents know that I expect them to be just as harsh on my child as they are their own. If slapping or spanking is justified, be my guest... actually, please do. I also make it clear to my kids that they should expect to be disciplined by other adults--so they know the consequences of their actions.

I ain't raising no punks.
[/quote]