To Slap Or Not To Slap?

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1284053882' post='2170888']
Jesus Christ made a whip of cords and drove out the money-changers from the temple courtyard for profaning His Father's house.[/quote]

There's a difference between driving someone out of the Temple with violence, and slapping someone because you're angry and you want to "teach him a lesson." There is also a difference between physically[i] stopping[/i] someone from taking and abusing the eucharist, and hitting him to "teach him a lesson" after the fact. That difference has been thoroughly explained in this thread.

[quote]The bleeding heart Catholics who apparently place a higher priority on the feelings or whatever of the blasphemer than on reverence to the Body of Christ have very strange priorities, to say the least.[/quote]

It's not about the feelings [i]or [/i]"whatever" about the blasphemer. It's not about the blasphemer at all, Socrates. It's about the proper response to blasphemy or any offense against God. Violence is not the proper response to blasphemy, or any insult. Jesus Himself told Peter to stay his sword in defense of Him, but here [i]you[/i] are proposing "slapping sense" into people?

[quote] We need to consider the salvation of souls when talking about "charity." The boy definitely needed to have some sense slapped into him. [/quote]

Physical violence is what you use to convince people of the veracity of an immaterial idea? Would you slap someone until he treated [i]you[/i] with basic respect? Can you slap respect for the Eucharist into someone? Such attempts are called "coercion of the will itself." And it's a grave evil.

[quote]
The kid'll live (sore cheek or no). Get over it.[/quote]

That's very consequentialist. Sheikh Mohammed lived, too. I don't know any orthodox Catholics who propose that we "get over" the gravely immoral reality of the fact he was tortured, because "he survived."

~Sternhauser

Edited September 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Guest iam_terry fc]

[i]blasphemy is not a crime abusing a child is the priest is the criminal and should be punished.[/i]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1284063146' post='2170982']
Sin can't "hurt" God. It does offend Him, but in no way does it damage Him. We should all be concerned about making sure the Eucharist receives glory and not insult.[/quote]

Christ is both upset and angry when His children sin. He is offended.

Lilllabettt also stated: "the blasphemer really is the person we should be concerned with; the priority, in other words-- him and whomever in the community may be led astray by his sin." I disagree with this statement because, as I am sure you know, reparations are constantly made to God for the desecration of the Eucharist. While the salvation of the young man's soul is most certainly important, God is always our priority.

[quote]It's highly doubtful that God is properly glorified through violence. People keep bringing up Jesus' behavior in the temple with the moneychangers - implying that we do well to imitate Him in His violence and wrath. I think it is better to imitate Jesus through His direct command to turn the other cheek. [b]He told us to take up the Cross and follow Him, not to take up the whip and beat other sinners.[/b]
[/quote]

No one has taken such an extreme position. Rather, many of us believe that such an extreme situation may necessitate an appropriate amount of aggression.

[Selah]

[quote name='iam_terry fc' timestamp='1284064213' post='2170988']
[i]blasphemy is not a crime abusing a child is the priest is the criminal and should be punished.[/i]
[/quote]


I agree that child abuse is wrong, but the article doesn't really say that it was a child...Just sayin'

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1284064699' post='2170992']
No one has taken such an extreme position. Rather, many of us believe that such an extreme situation may necessitate an appropriate amount of aggression.
[/quote]

Aggression that is intended to accomplish precisely what?

~Sternhauser

[Selah]

I was always taught: Don't be aggresive unless someone physically tries to hurt you. Then, go crazy.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='iam_terry fc' timestamp='1284064213' post='2170988']
[i]blasphemy is not a crime abusing a child is the priest is the criminal and should be punished.[/i]
[/quote]

The desecration of the Eucharist is most assuredly a very grave offense against God.

While the details are vague, and there are a few stories in circulation (I think it was Ice who posted a few of them), it is at least clear that the young man was slapped. Perhaps you define that as abuse, but in my opinion you will have a hard time finding someone who agrees. I am sure that even those who disagree with the slap would not go so far as to call it "abuse".

[Selah]

I would have slapped the kid too, thinking about it. And I'm not even Catholic.

(yes, yes, I said differently in the beginning of the thread. So sue me. :D )

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1284064889' post='2170998']
Aggression that is intended to accomplish precisely what?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

A public display of discipline, an act of punishment for the desecration of the Holy Eucharist, to convey the seriousness of the offense to both the offender and the congregation (especially if the young man brought friends and told them to watch). We also have to keep in mind that the priest most likely slapped the young man out of shock and anger. I have never been in such a situation, nor will I ever be (as I cannot be a priest), but I do know what it is like to react impulsively out of anger and to regret it later. The priest probably did not have the chance to think, he just reacted.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1284065312' post='2171007']
A public display of discipline, an act of punishment for the desecration of the Holy Eucharist, to convey the seriousness of the offense to both the offender and the congregation (especially if the young man brought friends and told them to watch). We also have to keep in mind that the priest most likely slapped the young man out of shock and anger. I have never been in such a situation, nor will I ever be (as I cannot be a priest), but I do know what it is like to react impulsively out of anger and to regret it later. The priest probably did not have the chance to think, he just reacted.
[/quote]

I have no doubt the priest slapped the young man out of shock and anger, and that he was barely in control of his actions. His culpability is not my concern.

My concern is this: what is any act of violence against a blasphemer intended to accomplish? You have posited that the public display of slapping a blasphemer can be a public display of "discipline." You say it can be intended to convey the seriousness of the offense to the offender and to others. May I morally convey the seriousness of adultery by stoning an adulterer or an adulteress to death? May I licitly convey the seriousness of treason by disemboweling traitors and hanging them up by their heels for public display? Would it be wrong to do that? Would it be wrong to kill a blasphemer to convey the seriousness of his sin to a congregation?

You may claim that I am going beyond the scope of this incident. That is not the case. Blasphemy, as someone pointed out, is nearly as evil a sin as murder. (The original poster said it was worse.)

If you intend to use physical violence as a means of convincing people of an idea, you are espousing coercion of the will itself.

~Sternhauser

[Tridenteen]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1284065048' post='2171004']
I would have slapped the kid too, thinking about it. And I'm not even Catholic.

(yes, yes, I said differently in the beginning of the thread. So sue me. :D )
[/quote]


JMJ

Edited September 9, 2010 by Tridenteen

[Selah]

lol. Actually my dad made me have a change of heart. I told him and he just looked at me and burst out laughing

I figured that was God's way of saying get over it

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Tridenteen' timestamp='1284065998' post='2171016']
JMJ

[/quote]
never you mind what this said

Edited September 9, 2010 by Lil Red

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
sorry lil red. I edited
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Edited September 9, 2010 by Tridenteen

[Selah]

edit

Edited September 9, 2010 by Selah