infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Council of Carthage VII And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]). -------------------------------- What does this mean then?
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297503427' post='2211636'] Council of Carthage VII And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]). -------------------------------- What does this mean then? [/quote] I've been baptized, am I not saved because it wasn't done [b]according to your satisfaction[/b]?
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the [b]intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula[/b]. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58 All that is necessary for the validity of baptism is the intent to do as has been done before, and the correct formula ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). Baptisms by Protestants are illicit in this sense, but still valid. Unless they have done away with the Trinitarian formula, which does happen at the wackier communities.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297534651' post='2211715'] 1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the [b]intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula[/b]. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58 All that is necessary for the validity of baptism is the intent to do as has been done before, and the correct formula ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). Baptisms by Protestants are illicit in this sense, but still valid. Unless they have done away with the Trinitarian formula, which does happen at the wackier communities. [/quote] I've seen that - which is why I always say - if someone says something I know isn't part of the Catholic Faith - then I test them on whether or not they are a 'rule sticking pharisee', or are they compassionate Christ loving Catholic.
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297539471' post='2211729'] I've seen that - which is why I always say - if someone says something I know isn't part of the Catholic Faith - then I test them on whether or not they are a 'rule sticking pharisee', or are they compassionate Christ loving Catholic. [/quote] Good point. I will have to keep it in mind to not be a rule sticking Pharisee. But at the same time, I think it is ok to talk about these things. And there is nothing wrong with Upholding the Laws of God. Scripture tells us that the Law exists so that we can become conscious of our sin. It also says that we are not made righteous by the Law. So you are right...we should be showing others these things with compassion and love. I admit...sometimes I may cross the line on the "rule sticking Pharisee" thing. But at the same time, Scripture tells us to prevent others from committing sin. And if someone is running around saying that you only need to be baptised in the Name of Jesus...then I am going to rebuke them. Thats just me.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297539870' post='2211731'] Good point. I will have to keep it in mind to not be a rule sticking Pharisee. But at the same time, I think it is ok to talk about these things. And there is nothing wrong with Upholding the Laws of God. Scripture tells us that the Law exists so that we can become conscious of our sin. It also says that we are not made righteous by the Law. So you are right...we should be showing others these things with compassion and love. I admit...sometimes I may cross the line on the "rule sticking Pharisee" thing. But at the same time, Scripture tells us to prevent others from committing sin. And if someone is running around saying that you only need to be baptised in the Name of Jesus...then I am going to rebuke them. Thats just me. [/quote] That is true. The oneness believers are likely to be the most out there with this kind of theology, and trying to tell them, look, the Father is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit is going to be one hard thing for them to swallow. They can be even worse to work things out than a Catholic.
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297540164' post='2211732'] That is true. The oneness believers are likely to be the most out there with this kind of theology, and trying to tell them, look, the Father is not the Son and is not the Holy Spirit is going to be one hard thing for them to swallow. They can be even worse to work things out than a Catholic. [/quote] Well you know...I, of course, would disagree with the last part you said. And from my perspective, I see any Non-Catholic Christian as stubborn and ignorant. Please don't take ignorant the wrong way...ignorant does not imply a low level of intelligence. Theres too much historical evidence that supports the Catholic Teachings. Things like Salvation on Earth did not come about until Martin Luther came. Which one am I going to choose? The one that teaches things the way it was always taught. Not the one that started 1500+ years after Christ came...furthermore, where its belief system leads you to think that everyone went to hell until Martin Luther came along. You might as well call Martin Luther the Messiah. And besides, the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ himself established. Amen. You ever done that experiment where like a teacher or any random person will whisper something into a student's ear and tell them to pass it along to the person behind him/her? Then the message keeps getting passed all the way around the room until everyone heard it. Then they compare messages from the First and Last person to Receive it while noticing that the messages are completely different. Thats a good analogy to Protestantism. Catholics represent the people where the message never changed. Protestants represent the people who changed the message and heard things differently from the original message. It's really that simple. Edited February 12, 2011 by infinitelord1
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297550524' post='2211793'] Well you know...I, of course, would disagree with the last part you said. And from my perspective, I see any Non-Catholic Christian as stubborn and ignorant. Please don't take ignorant the wrong way...ignorant does not imply a low level of intelligence. Theres too much historical evidence that supports the Catholic Teachings. Things like Salvation on Earth did not come about until Martin Luther came. Which one am I going to choose? The one that teaches things the way it was always taught. Not the one that started 1500+ years after Christ came...furthermore, where its belief system leads you to think that everyone went to hell until Martin Luther came along. You might as well call Martin Luther the Messiah. And besides, the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ himself established. Amen. [/quote] I've never really thought about salvation in those terms. There has to be some degree of rightly dividing the word here. I agree that Christ has justified all - but are all sanctified - living a life wholly devoted to Christ without blemish? That can take a lifetime for God to work those things out - and it really depends on how much you allow God to 'prune you'. I like to use my life as an example of God's working in the hearts of people, because I have a high degree of intrapersonal and interpersonal intelligence. So, let me talk about how one becomes more and more sanctified. My ex-girlfriend was a huge mistake. I knew it from a week starting to go out with her. I knew it was going to end horribly because her e-mail address was - Devilsgirl_fire_666@........ You tell me, was I an idiot for going out with her? 6 Months later, we broke up - oh thank God I am free from her now. I resolved I was never going to go out with a girl who didn't believe in God ever again. About a year later, I meet Robin - and she believes in God (if she didn't I wouldn't continue to go out with her), and we hold so many things in common. The Bible says that God would prune you if you are attached to Christ - for you to bear fruit. Well, God certainly pruned my foolish idea I could go out with someone who doesn't believe in God, and then he gives me a beautiful girl who believes in God that I share tonnes of things in common with - so certainly I am on the road of sanctification because I resolved in my heart never to go out with someone who doesn't believe in God again. It is events like this that remind me - there is 6 billion paths to God - because we all must work out our salvations with fear and trembling (and since the fear of the Lord is to hate evil - you must look at your evil - like mine thinking it was a good idea to go out with a unbeliever - and forever forsake it!) Edited February 12, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
infinitelord1 Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297551462' post='2211797'] I've never really thought about salvation in those terms. There has to be some degree of rightly dividing the word here. I agree that Christ has justified all - but are all sanctified - living a life wholly devoted to Christ without blemish? That can take a lifetime for God to work those things out - and it really depends on how much you allow God to 'prune you'. I like to use my life as an example of God's working in the hearts of people, because I have a high degree of intrapersonal and interpersonal intelligence. So, let me talk about how one becomes more and more sanctified. My ex-girlfriend was a huge mistake. I knew it from a week starting to go out with her. I knew it was going to end horribly because her e-mail address was - Devilsgirl_fire_666@........ You tell me, was I an idiot for going out with her? 6 Months later, we broke up - oh thank God I am free from her now. I resolved I was never going to go out with a girl who didn't believe in God ever again. About a year later, I meet Robin - and she believes in God (if she didn't I wouldn't continue to go out with her), and we hold so many things in common. The Bible says that God would prune you if you are attached to Christ - for you to bear fruit. Well, God certainly pruned my foolish idea I could go out with someone who doesn't believe in God, and then he gives me a beautiful girl who believes in God that I share tonnes of things in common with - so certainly I am on the road of sanctification because I resolved in my heart never to go out with someone who doesn't believe in God again. It is events like this that remind me - there is 6 billion paths to God - because we all must work out our salvations with fear and trembling (and since the fear of the Lord is to hate evil - you must look at your evil - like mine thinking it was a good idea to go out with a unbeliever - and forever forsake it!) [/quote] I want to respect your opinions. And no I refuse to speculate if you are an idiot. Based on what you told me, I would never look at you that way. I don't want to look at anybody that way for making a mistake. I am having a hard time with your assertion "there is 6 billion paths to God" however. I disagree with this. Ill just leave it at that.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297559128' post='2211833'] I want to respect your opinions. And no I refuse to speculate if you are an idiot. Based on what you told me, I would never look at you that way. I don't want to look at anybody that way for making a mistake. I am having a hard time with your assertion "there is 6 billion paths to God" however. I disagree with this. Ill just leave it at that. [/quote] Yeah, maybe 6 billion paths isn't the best way to describe it, but God interacts with each individual on Earth - so he's doing 6 billion things to reach out to us, and each of us are on our own personal journey to understand God and our place in this world - salvation may or may not be included in that journey.
Dscherck Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1297350865' post='2210965'] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... [/quote] My marriage to my Protestant wife is considered valid even though it predates my reception into full communion with the Church.
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