MithLuin Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1296710690' post='2208094'] You know I have often wondered if it was better to not tell a Protestant that their marriage really isn't valid. Because the minister who married them is separated from the Church. Hence, separated from Jesus Christ and his Sacraments. Furthermore, they were not married by God. So basically every non-Catholic marriage is Fornication if you think about it. But its probably best not to tell anyone...because if they don't know then I think God may have mercy on them and not send them to hell for it. They may just have to settle for Purgatory. [/quote] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid....
LouisvilleFan Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1297350865' post='2210965'] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... [/quote] For that matter, we wouldn't consider a non-baptized Hindu couple who are married in their faith and live chastely to be fornicators
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1297350865' post='2210965'] Except that the minister of the sacrament of matrimony is the couple, and as long as they are baptized, there's no reason they can't administer the sacrament to one another. The Catholic Church recognizes Protestant baptisms as valid. Eucharist and Holy Orders are a different matter, but baptism and matrimony ought to be valid.... [/quote] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony?
havok579257 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297392957' post='2211203'] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony? [/quote] 100% certain that the church recognizes protestant baptism. as long as the protestant sect believes in the trinity and baptises in the name of the trinity, then the baptism is 100% valid.
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1297393353' post='2211207'] 100% certain that the church recognizes protestant baptism. as long as the protestant sect believes in the trinity and baptises in the name of the trinity, then the baptism is 100% valid. [/quote] Do you have a source to verify this?
LouisvilleFan Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297393608' post='2211211'] Do you have a source to verify this? [/quote] http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1271.htm 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297392957' post='2211203'] Wait. How certain are you that the Catholic Church recognizes Protestant Baptism and Matrimony? [/quote] [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297393608' post='2211211'] Do you have a source to verify this? [/quote] I thought that was sorta common knowledge.
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297397155' post='2211231'] I thought that was sorta common knowledge. [/quote] Never knew. And besides... I was thinking that Protestant Marriage's were invalid. I still haven't seen any proof that they are valid. Edited February 11, 2011 by infinitelord1
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297398807' post='2211249'] Never knew. And besides... I was thinking that Protestant Marriage's were invalid. I still haven't seen any proof that they are valid. [/quote] I read some stuff in a book about that, but I don't trust the author because he's *very* lackadaisical about reverence at Communion. Catherine can probably comment on it though.
Jaime Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church.
IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1297432201' post='2211315'] If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church. [/quote] You're a genius.
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1297432201' post='2211315'] If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church. [/quote] So where does it end? Protestant sacraments are valid? To what extent? So when a Protestant Minister holds up bread and grape juice and recites "This is my body" etc. transubstantiation happens? Even though they don't believe its literally His flesh and Blood? or If I were to go to a Protestant Minister to be forgiven of my sins, and he decided to tell me that my sins were forgiven. Then the Holy Spirit would have absolved me? ------------------------------- It seems to me that we are giving Protestants credit for things but Im not sure if we are even certain of which places they deserve this credit. I think the best question is.... Which Sacraments are valid in a Protestant Church? Which are not valid?
homeschoolmom Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297457335' post='2211439'] So where does it end? Protestant sacraments are valid? To what extent? So when a Protestant Minister holds up bread and grape juice and recites "This is my body" etc. transubstantiation happens? Even though they don't believe its literally His flesh and Blood? or If I were to go to a Protestant Minister to be forgiven of my sins, and he decided to tell me that my sins were forgiven. Then the Holy Spirit would have absolved me? ------------------------------- It seems to me that we are giving Protestants credit for things but Im not sure if we are even certain of which places they deserve this credit. I think the best question is.... Which Sacraments are valid in a Protestant Church? Which are not valid? [/quote] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Srsly.
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Great answer. Thanks. Why the need to bang your head on the wall? Edited February 12, 2011 by infinitelord1
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Where the heck did protestants who are married are actually not and are fornicating come from? A marriage, according to scripture, can be as simple as the bride and groom going before their families (or friends if the bride and groom have no family - i.e. both were in orphanges for their entire lives) and declaring they are committed to each other for the rest of their lives because there is only need of two witnesses for the event - and that is a legal marriage as far as God is concerned. Edited February 12, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297489124' post='2211601'] Where the heck did protestants who are married are actually not and are fornicating come from? A marriage, according to scripture, can be as simple as the bride and groom going before their families (or friends if the bride and groom have no family - i.e. both were in orphanges for their entire lives) and declaring they are committed to each other for the rest of their lives because there is only need of two witnesses for the event - and that is a legal marriage as far as God is concerned. [/quote] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up. And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it. I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. Edited February 12, 2011 by infinitelord1
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up. And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it. I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. [/quote] The minister of marriage is considered within the Latin Rite of the Church to be the couple. 1623 In the Latin Church, it is ordinarily understood that the spouses, as ministers of Christ's grace, mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the Eastern liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called "Crowning") is the priest or bishop who, after receiving the mutual consent of the spouses, successively crowns the bridegroom and the bride as a sign of the marriage covenant.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up.[/quote] Okay, I can see why it was brought up. I don't usually enter these kinds of debates, but I knew you had to be off. Most of the time Catholic's will have a teaching that says what protestants do is recognized by the Catholic Church - and I think there was people who brought that up. But on the rule of there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church - even if someone is totally committed to Christ and is a Protestant - if nobody here can see that doctrine is one to scare people to force them to be Catholics - I don't know what would. God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of love, power and a sound mind - so any kind of doctrine that scares you if you don't obey is most likely not of God - after all the fear of the lord is to hate evil. [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it.[/quote] Considering I am not a Catholic - I don't see it that way. . . Marriage is a covenant between two people and God, and what God puts together, let no man put it asunder - including a pope! [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. [/quote] Keep reading. Edited February 12, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
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