IcePrincessKRS Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1297432201' post='2211315'] If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church. [/quote] You're a genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1297432201' post='2211315'] If someone is baptised with the proper form. (i.e. Father Son and Holy Spirit) its a valid sacrament. Protestant marriages are not recognized as sacramental but the Church recognizes that there are still graces within the marriage. So a protestant couple would be recognized as married by anyone Catholic. But if that couple converted, they would also want their marriage blessed in the Church. [/quote] So where does it end? Protestant sacraments are valid? To what extent? So when a Protestant Minister holds up bread and grape juice and recites "This is my body" etc. transubstantiation happens? Even though they don't believe its literally His flesh and Blood? or If I were to go to a Protestant Minister to be forgiven of my sins, and he decided to tell me that my sins were forgiven. Then the Holy Spirit would have absolved me? ------------------------------- It seems to me that we are giving Protestants credit for things but Im not sure if we are even certain of which places they deserve this credit. I think the best question is.... Which Sacraments are valid in a Protestant Church? Which are not valid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297457335' post='2211439'] So where does it end? Protestant sacraments are valid? To what extent? So when a Protestant Minister holds up bread and grape juice and recites "This is my body" etc. transubstantiation happens? Even though they don't believe its literally His flesh and Blood? or If I were to go to a Protestant Minister to be forgiven of my sins, and he decided to tell me that my sins were forgiven. Then the Holy Spirit would have absolved me? ------------------------------- It seems to me that we are giving Protestants credit for things but Im not sure if we are even certain of which places they deserve this credit. I think the best question is.... Which Sacraments are valid in a Protestant Church? Which are not valid? [/quote] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Srsly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 These threads are more fun with a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Great answer. Thanks. Why the need to bang your head on the wall? Edited February 12, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Where the heck did protestants who are married are actually not and are fornicating come from? A marriage, according to scripture, can be as simple as the bride and groom going before their families (or friends if the bride and groom have no family - i.e. both were in orphanges for their entire lives) and declaring they are committed to each other for the rest of their lives because there is only need of two witnesses for the event - and that is a legal marriage as far as God is concerned. Edited February 12, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297489124' post='2211601'] Where the heck did protestants who are married are actually not and are fornicating come from? A marriage, according to scripture, can be as simple as the bride and groom going before their families (or friends if the bride and groom have no family - i.e. both were in orphanges for their entire lives) and declaring they are committed to each other for the rest of their lives because there is only need of two witnesses for the event - and that is a legal marriage as far as God is concerned. [/quote] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up. And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it. I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. Edited February 12, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up. And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it. I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. [/quote] The minister of marriage is considered within the Latin Rite of the Church to be the couple. 1623 In the Latin Church, it is ordinarily understood that the spouses, as ministers of Christ's grace, mutually confer upon each other the sacrament of Matrimony by expressing their consent before the Church. In the Eastern liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called "Crowning") is the priest or bishop who, after receiving the mutual consent of the spouses, successively crowns the bridegroom and the bride as a sign of the marriage covenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] It came from me. I was thinking that if you are separated from the Church then how can any sacrament really be valid? But I was wrong. So there you go. Theres your answer. Besides...isn't this thread debating whether or not Protestants go to heaven since they are separated from the Catholic Church? Thats why I brought it up.[/quote] Okay, I can see why it was brought up. I don't usually enter these kinds of debates, but I knew you had to be off. Most of the time Catholic's will have a teaching that says what protestants do is recognized by the Catholic Church - and I think there was people who brought that up. But on the rule of there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church - even if someone is totally committed to Christ and is a Protestant - if nobody here can see that doctrine is one to scare people to force them to be Catholics - I don't know what would. God doesn't give the spirit of fear, but one of love, power and a sound mind - so any kind of doctrine that scares you if you don't obey is most likely not of God - after all the fear of the lord is to hate evil. [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] And if it were deemed invalid by the Catholic Church then they would be committing fornication if you think about it.[/quote] Considering I am not a Catholic - I don't see it that way. . . Marriage is a covenant between two people and God, and what God puts together, let no man put it asunder - including a pope! [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297490204' post='2211604'] I Believe what you all are saying about Matrimony not requiring a Minister. I still haven't seen any proof that this is what the Catholic Church teaches. But at this point I don't even care anymore. [/quote] Keep reading. Edited February 12, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1297459505' post='2211447'] I have no idea why I'm getting into this with you.... Baptisms are valid if they have the Trinitarian form and use water. Anyone can baptize in an emergency. Therefore, it does not necessary require the presence of ordained clergy to make it valid. Matrimony-- the ministers of the sacrament are the bride and groom... again, ordained clergy are not performing this sacrament-- the couple is. Only sacraments that require ordained clergy-- Holy Orders, Reconcilliation, Communion, Annointing of the Sick, and Confirmation are not concidered valid outside of Catholicism. [/quote] Council of Carthage VII And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]). -------------------------------- What does this mean then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1297503427' post='2211636'] Council of Carthage VII And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]). -------------------------------- What does this mean then? [/quote] I've been baptized, am I not saved because it wasn't done [b]according to your satisfaction[/b]? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the [b]intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula[/b]. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58 All that is necessary for the validity of baptism is the intent to do as has been done before, and the correct formula ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). Baptisms by Protestants are illicit in this sense, but still valid. Unless they have done away with the Trinitarian formula, which does happen at the wackier communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1297534651' post='2211715'] 1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the [b]intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula[/b]. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.58 All that is necessary for the validity of baptism is the intent to do as has been done before, and the correct formula ("I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"). Baptisms by Protestants are illicit in this sense, but still valid. Unless they have done away with the Trinitarian formula, which does happen at the wackier communities. [/quote] I've seen that - which is why I always say - if someone says something I know isn't part of the Catholic Faith - then I test them on whether or not they are a 'rule sticking pharisee', or are they compassionate Christ loving Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1297539471' post='2211729'] I've seen that - which is why I always say - if someone says something I know isn't part of the Catholic Faith - then I test them on whether or not they are a 'rule sticking pharisee', or are they compassionate Christ loving Catholic. [/quote] Good point. I will have to keep it in mind to not be a rule sticking Pharisee. But at the same time, I think it is ok to talk about these things. And there is nothing wrong with Upholding the Laws of God. Scripture tells us that the Law exists so that we can become conscious of our sin. It also says that we are not made righteous by the Law. So you are right...we should be showing others these things with compassion and love. I admit...sometimes I may cross the line on the "rule sticking Pharisee" thing. But at the same time, Scripture tells us to prevent others from committing sin. And if someone is running around saying that you only need to be baptised in the Name of Jesus...then I am going to rebuke them. Thats just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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