If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[reyb]

I dunno if this has been said before and I probably won't contribute to this debate again, but virtually every philosopher grants that omnipotence does not require that God be able to do the literally impossible - God can't make it true that there is a greatest prime number, for instance.  Since it would be impossible for there to be a stone that God could not lift (more properly move, I'd say) God cannot make it, but that is not a restriction on omnipotence, which is merely the ability to do anything possible.  [Aside:  this comes up again in considerations of God's being able to lie - if God cannot lie, does that restrict his omnipotence?  Well, if it's literally not possible for God to lie, then on this conception of omnipotence, no.]

 

Some people have disagreed, however.  So let's assume that omnipotence requires the ability to do anything, including the impossible.  Then God could create a stone that He could not lift.  However, God could also lift that stone - it's impossible, since it's a stone that God cannot lift, but we've already said that God can do the impossible.  So there is no trouble here either.

There are infinitely many prime numbers and whatever is the greatest is still unknown to us. (Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_number).  But, I believe, it does not follow it is the same to God.

 

Nevertheless, this is not the reason why I believe that ‘nothing is impossible’ to God. The coming of Christ is the impossible doing of God, and God alone can do it. Because, this coming of Christ was seen, at that one time (he comes just once), by all God’s witnesses, while all of God's witnesses are scattered in different times and generations. (i.e. 

Abraham, Moses, Jonah, Luke, Paul, etc.etc.)

 

As I have explained in my previous post ‘God’s inability to lie is a proof of his unlimited and unbounded power rather than, a proof of his failure to do everything and anything.’ (Please see my previous post). 

 

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Suppose your analysis is correct...

So, the question is....Now (today or at this moment), can he move or lift that rock or not?

Edited July 18, 2014 by reyb

[dairygirl4u2c]

here is my edited final response:

 

 

Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift? it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.

my position is that he can do one or the other, at different times, but he can't do both at the same time. and, that he can't do both at the same time doesn't disprove God as omnipotent.

the solution is to say that God is limited by logic as far as we can see, but it is possible for him to act beyond logic. 'the otherwise unlimited force of God that is limited by logic'. and the opt out, that God is God and he can do whatever he wants, logical or not.

the questions of the paradox are basically another way of saying the following...
"can the unlimited limit itself? if not, it is not unlimited. is so, it is not unlimited."

does the fact that we can ask those questions show that the unlimited is possible only in theory, but when examined, is not actually possible? a mere human construct that has been shown to not hold up against scrutiny?

not necessarily. it more so shows the absurdity of the question. no matter how we approach it, the unlimited is then limited. calling the unlimited, limited, for the above stated reasons, is an absurd notion itself.

the only way to approach it is to say, if the unlimited is truly unlimited, then it cannot limit itself. that would be illogical. this is true at the abstract level, but has troubling consequences in application. cause what gives, can he make the rock or can't he? does the inability of the unlimited being unable to limit itself translate into "God cannot create the rock i.e. limit himself in that way?" or does it translate into 'he can create the rock cause he is unlimited, but he can't lift it?"

the solution is to say 'the otherwise unlimited force of God that is limited by logic'.  and then i gave an opt out, that God is God and he can do whatever he wants, logical or not. if God wants to make the moon mean fish, or a circle be a square, he can.

the solution lies examining God according to logic, versus the unlimited imagination. for example, in the real world as we can claim to know it, a circle cannot at the same time be a square. if the inability for a square to at the same time be a circle shows that the unlimited is not possible, then yes, the unlimited does not exist. but in the real world, the unlimited can be said to exist, if it follows the laws of logic. this all translates into God by replacing "unlimited" with "God". the unlimited ultimately translates into God's abilities. so, God in the world of imagination where circles can be squares, God is in no way limited. but in the real world as we know it, God is limited by logic. perhaps it is better not to say that God is unlimited, but that God is reality, which includes logic. or at least to recognize that the unlimited can only be so in the real world where logic restricts what it really mean to be unlimited.

so we've examined the unlimited when it comes to the square circle, an as an 'unlimited as otherwise limited by logic'.... so what about back to the issue of God and the rock?

to answer this, we need to ask another question. what happens when an immovable rock meets the unstoppable force of God?

the issue-- the paradox arises because it rests on two premises- that there exist such things as immovable rocks and unstoppable forces - which cannot both be true at once. If there exists an unstoppable force, it follows logically that there cannot be any such thing as an immovable rock, and vice versa.

so the key then is "at once". to ask if God can create both scenarios at once is a logical impossibility. God cannot do the logically impossible.

if God creates the immovable rock, he cannot be an unstoppable force. and if God acts as the unstoppable force, he cannot create an immovable rock. he must choose which scenario exists at any given time. and, in fact, the fact that he would be able to choose the scenario, highlights the underlying omnipotence of God to begin with.

to highlight the time element. if God made a rock that could not be lifted for a week, then for a week he could not lift it. when we merely say God can make the rock, but then he can lift it, we are assuming that the time has elapsed such that God is able to then 'switch gears' and lift it. when we add a time element such as "a week" it highlights that there are in fact restrictions if God makes that rock. 

we have to suppose that God knows what he's doing when he makes decisions like that to prevent lifting it for a week. and, this is a matter of consistency.... it is like dropping a ball or not. i can say i won't drop a ball, and if i am consistent as i would imagine God is, then i won't drop the ball. if he creates the rock, whether or not he can lift it, he probably won't lift it for as long as he says he won't. not that he couldn't.
 

but, if God wanted to lift the rock which should not be able to be lifted, then he can. but this is getting into illogic, making a circle a square type stuff.

so, as some have intuitively argued, God can create the rock, but then he can also choose to lift it. but he can't create both scenarios at once. that would be illogical.
so.. yes, in some sense, God as the unlimited has been shown to not exist... he is restricted. but.... he's merely restricted from the world of imagination, due to logic. God cannot be illogical.

so, ultimately... the notion of unlimited that follows logic hasn't been shown to not exist.... it and the following notion of God, has been shown to be possible..... as long as it's consistent, and logical.

--------
 

and last, it is notable to approach this from the point of 'the unlimited paradox'. "the unlimited paradox states that an immovable object cannot exist at the same time as an unstoppable force. the fact that it cannot exist at the same time, shows that the unlimited truly doesn't exist." this approach in practice, highlights more that those who are atheists will find ways to make 'the unlimited paradox' not be a paradox, while the "God paradox" has the same issue with regards to theists.

 

[reyb]

What is the conclusion then? Is it wrong to believe that God can do everything even the impossible? 

[dairygirl4u2c]

my position can be found in the first few paragraph and last paragraphs

 

Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift? it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.

my position is that he can do one or the other, at different times, but he can't do both at the same time. and, that he can't do both at the same time doesn't disprove God as omnipotent.

the solution is to say that God is limited by logic as far as we can see, but it is possible for him to act beyond logic. 'the otherwise unlimited force of God that is limited by logic'. and the opt out, that God is God and he can do whatever he wants, logical or not.

 

 

[reyb]

my position can be found in the first few paragraph and last paragraphs

Where is God’s omnipotence at that particular time? (since you said ‘ that he can't do both at the same time doesn't disprove God as omnipotent.’), Can you please explain it further?

[Credo in Deum]

Nothing exists outside of God, because there is no "outside" of God. God cannot make rocks He cannot carry not because He is limited, but because the rock is limited since it depends on Him for it's existance. Because the rock in question cannot exist without God, and therefore cannot not not be carried by Him, then it's non-existance is the accomplishment of any "reality" it would have provided -which is nothing- had it existed -which it could not. Last time I checked "nothingness" is not a limitation, because "nothingness" is not a thing.

Us: God what are you limited by?
God:Nothingness.
Us: So, you're limited by nothing?
God: Exactly!

Omnipotence does not exist outside of God, since He IS omnipotence itself. Omnipotence cannot be something God is not.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Where is God’s omnipotence at that particular time? (since you said ‘ that he can't do both at the same time doesn't disprove God as omnipotent.’), Can you please explain it further?

 

as i said later in the essay i wrote above, an unstoppable force of a God cannot exist at the same time as the immovable force of a rock... as a matter of logic. if something is moveable, by an unstoppabel force, then it's not truly immovable even if it otherwise would be. these are two forces that cannot exist at the same time.

 

if they were to exist at the same time, per unlimited potential, or omnipotence, then it would be an act of illogic. this is where God can do whatever he wants, illogical or not. if he wants to make a circle a square, he can. to make the moon mean fish, he can. to make an unstoppable force at the same time as an immovable obect? that would be illogical, but he could do that too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[dairygirl4u2c]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyYX-8zHEk

[reyb]

as i said later in the essay i wrote above, an unstoppable force of a God cannot exist at the same time as the immovable force of a rock... as a matter of logic. if something is moveable, by an unstoppabel force, then it's not truly immovable even if it otherwise would be. these are two forces that cannot exist at the same time.

 

if they were to exist at the same time, per unlimited potential, or omnipotence, then it would be an act of illogic. this is where God can do whatever he wants, illogical or not. if he wants to make a circle a square, he can. to make the moon mean fish, he can. to make an unstoppable force at the same time as an immovable obect? that would be illogical, but he could do that too.

 

To make it short, you ‘believe’ that God can do both (at that same time) but you cannot see it or how it become possible.

 

Hence, you just 'believe' in its possibility that God's ominpotence is still present or active or working at that time since you said ' if they were to exist at the same time, per unlimited potential, or omnipotence, then it would be an act of illogic. this is where God can do whatever he wants, illogical or not'.)

 

Am I Correct? 

Edited July 21, 2014 by reyb

[dairygirl4u2c]

sure that is correct

[reyb]

sure that is correct

Okay. Since you believe in this ‘idea’ -  That God can create a rock which He himself has no power to lift or move it, and at that same time God can move it anyway since 'nothing is impossible' to Him -----(again) since you believe in that idea. What is your proof or basis that this idea can be true? 

[dairygirl4u2c]

my only proof that he can do anything, logical or not, is faith, and it is standard theology. i should include in my essay that ti's just standard theoglogy.

[reyb]

my only proof that he can do anything, logical or not, is faith, and it is standard theology. i should include in my essay that ti's just standard theoglogy.

At the end of the day, you believe that nothing is impossible with God because of your ‘faith’ and not because of that ‘illogical’ idea. And obviously, you accepted the truthfulness (or possible truthfulness) of this ‘illogical idea’ (That God can create a rock which He himself has no power to lift or move it, and at that same time God can move it anyway) because you 'believe' that nothing is impossible with God.

Of course, it is a good thing to believe (or to have faith) that God is almighty. But the problem is this. You are the one who created the deciding factor in justifying or nullifying God’s omnipotence. And it is in a form of a test as you have previously posted.
 

Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift? it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.

And it that test, you will 'only' give your affirmation that God is all powerful ‘if God can created a rock he cannot lift and at the same time He can lift it’. Otherwise, you will not believe that God is omnipotent. In that case, you (are practically) will not believe that God can do anything and everything if God cannot lie.

If a God said ‘I cannot do it’ and then at the same time ‘He can’ . Then, that God is a liar.

As I have said,
 

Unfounded understanding about God’s power will certainly lead to erroneous conclusion that God has limits. They thought, if God cannot lie then, to believe that God can do everything must be wrong. Thus, many are saying that God can do lie (in order to justify that God can do everything) but willed not to lie.

Let us clarify this thing first,
Do you believe that it is possible for a true God to lie or not? Edited July 22, 2014 by reyb

[reyb]

.....correction.... pls see above post

And in that test, you will give your affirmation that God is all powerful ‘if God can create a rock he cannot lift and at the same time He can lift it’. Otherwise, God is not omnipotent. If that is case, you (are practically) do not really believe that God is omnipotent if God cannot lie.

I know you do not 'literary' say that God is a liar. But, if a God said ‘I cannot do it’ and then at the same time ‘He can’. Then, he is obviously lying.
.................

So let us clarify this thing first,
Do you believe that it is possible for a true God to lie or not?

Edited July 22, 2014 by reyb