Occupy Wall Street Baloney

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318808074' post='2322301']If that problem can only exist because of the government, then yes, it is wrong. It didn't inform, it misdirected.
It's like saying lots of buildings in Dresden suddenly burned up and failing to mention the bombs dropped to start the firestorm.[/quote]

Winnie, the focus of the article is why the OWS protesters are upset with corporations. It is not how corporations are able to do what they do. It is focused and directed.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1318853117' post='2322598']
Winnie, the focus of the article is why the OWS protesters are upset with corporations. It is not how corporations are able to do what they do. It is focused and directed.
[/quote]
And thus it is wrong.

The article proposes to show that the protestors have something to be angry about and then it shows numbers that are meaningless without the big picture. You are satisfied by poor analysis. I am not.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Winchester

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318853845' post='2322605']
And thus it is wrong.

The article proposes to show that the protestors have something to be angry about and then it shows numbers that are meaningless without the big picture. You are satisfied by poor analysis. I am not.
[/quote]

The numbers are not meaningless. The article tells a part of the story. It does not claim to tell the entire story. You want the article to be different. That does not make it wrong. I think you might be upset about the fact that it does not focus where you want it to focus. Ironically, I completely agree with you about the responsibility of the government, but I completely disagree with you about the article. In hopes of being able to focus on the real problem, I officially give in. You win, Winnie.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1318862261' post='2322655']

The numbers are not meaningless.
[/quote]
Meaningless without the big picture.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1318807648' post='2322296']

What the hell is that supposed to mean, anyway? That Canadians are responsible for the OWS movement? Really?

The fact is, most people are missing the point here. OWS is neither all good nor all bad. There are some really significant things going on here, and some important discussions to be had for those who care to set aside a partisan knee-jerk reaction to critically review the underlying arguments and positions. I'll elaborate with my personal opinion.

1. I'm glad that the protests are happening. It shows that people can still be engaged and display their anger in a non-violent way.
2. I am very sorry that what could have been a productive discussion seems to have been co-opted by Marxist hippie types who seem to be more interested in bongo playing and selling Che Guevara flags. That isn't the protest...that is a parody of the protest.[/quote]
The protest was originally organized by Adbusters, a radical leftist Canadian group. While it's no doubt true that not everybody at the protest is a Marxist hippie or necessarily agrees with Adbusters views (though the leftist types do seem to be the clear majority), it's not accurate to claim the protest was co-opted by "Marxist hippie types," as they were the ones who originally organized the protest (or, I suppose more accurately, Marxist punker types).


[quote]3. Since the protest is fond of using percentages, I'll play along. It seems that the 99% of protesters have missed a large segment of the point. This should not be a discussion about wealth. Being wealthy isn't wrong. What is wrong is the fact that we have bypassed democratic process and instead are engaged in a corporatist government model. Protesting those companies who use immoral, unethical and illegal means to gain footholds to exploit the people for profit and power? Excellent. Protest away. However, many of those who are on Wall Street should also be camping on the Mall and the White House lawn. The government is largely to blame for this corporatist state of affairs. It's a vicious cycle, because the government that people want regulating these companies is the same entity that is responsible for them having the legal loopholes, tax breaks and other avenues that have enabled this situation to continue. It's just a matter of two organizations (corporations and government) having a mutually enriching arrangement that is built solely on the exploitation of those who provide the capital (i.e., the people).[/quote]
Exactly; that's what us dumb left-wing types have been arguing all along in this thread.

As long as the bulk of the protesters support Obama and call for more government "regulation" and socialist re-distribution of wealth, they will only enable the government to perpetuate the problem.

[quote]The fact is, no matter what pundits or talking heads want to make it seem, there is a part of this movement that is based on very legitimate anger over very legitimate complaints. The fact that the movement has been co-opted by a bunch of hippies doesn't make the underlying arguments less valid. However, the position of most of the OWS protesters doesn't go far enough in addressing the fullness of the problem. Honestly, the Tea Party wasn't originally intended as a Republican mouthpiece movement...it was based on a grassroots collaboration of people who wanted to argue the constitutionality of government actions. The fact that it has become synonymous with the Republican party doesn't make the initial, underlying points less legitimate, in the same way that the goofy hippie, Marxist-spouting idiots who have glommed onto the newest protest trend don't make the initial argument some lib[acronym=''][/acronym]eral pipe dream. [/quote]
As I pointed out earlier, the protest was actually started by Leftist radical types, rather than co-opted by them.

It would be more accurate to say that it was co-opted by the Democratic politicians who are voicing their support to and encouraging the protests.
As most of the "Occupiers" seem to want to re-elect and further empower Obama, this hardly looks encouraging.

[quote]This protest is a symptom of a larger issue--the growing discontent of the people with a government who no longer even pretends to be constitutional, or a democratic republic, but instead chooses to make alliances with large corporate entities to reinforce a circular, oligarchical power structure. If more people looked beyond politics to the root of the issue, examined it critically for its positives and negatives, and then advanced the discussion, this protest could be the roots of significant change.[/quote]
Fat chance of that happening.

They'll demand more hope'n'change, and vote for Obama who may try to appease them by pushing some "soak the rich" legislation, and business (and politics) as usual will continue.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1318853117' post='2322598']
Winnie, the focus of the article is why the OWS protesters are upset with corporations. It is not how corporations are able to do what they do. It is focused and directed.
[/quote]
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1318853845' post='2322605']
And thus it is wrong.

The article proposes to show that the protestors have something to be angry about and then it shows numbers that are meaningless without the big picture. You are satisfied by poor analysis. I am not.
[/quote]
I agree with Winchester here. The article was hardly an objective, impartial report of what protesters were saying, but more of an op-ed about how bad corporations are and how they're prospering at the expense of the rest of us, complete with charts, pictures of Martin Sheen playing Gordon Gecko in "Wall Street," and other compelling figures, with nary a word about how the government enabled them. Trying to drum up outrage against Wall Street and "the rich," while ignoring the whole role of government in the mess, is indeed misleading.

It simply supports the old "too much unbridled capitalism going on, so we need more government involvement to save us" spiel.

[BG45]

Just some links on both sides of the debate:

[url="http://www.naturalnews.com/033779_JP_Morgan_Occupy_Wall_Street.html"]JP Morgan Chase donates a tax deductible $4.6 million to NYPD prior to Occupy Wall Street.[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3kiaJ1-c8&feature=player_embedded"]Video of Citibank locking people inside until the NYPD gets there (some of them there to close their bank accounts), really love the woman in businesswear outside of the bank being assaulted and detained by an NYPD officer in a Ralph Lauren sweatshirt as she waves her Citibank checkbook.[/url]

[url="http://www.thenation.com/blog/164014/occupy-wall-street-protesters-pack-times-square"]NYPD horse charge on Times Square protesters, no one hurt; police horse injured and eventually euthanized.[/url]

[url="http://www.cpusa.org/solidarity-with-occupy-wall-street"]Communist Party USA throws support behind Occupy Wall Street.[/url]

[url="http://www.theblaze.com/stories/american-nazi-party-endorses-occupy-wall-streets-courage-tells-members-to-support-protests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/"]Nazi Party USA throws support behind Occupy Wall Street.[/url]

So who supports OWS, or at least says that it understands why they're protesting? Let's see: [url="http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/figures-nazi-party-throws-support-behind-occupy-wall-street-movement/"]Commies[/url], [url="http://www.theblaze.com/stories/american-nazi-party-endorses-occupy-wall-streets-courage-tells-members-to-support-protests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/"]Nazis[/url], [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/05/ron-paul-calls-occupy-wall-street-a-legitimate-effort/"]Republicans[/url], [url="http://nation.foxnews.com/democrats/2011/10/17/ems-deepen-associations-occupy-movement"]Democrats[/url], [url="http://m.christianpost.com/news/occupy-wall-street-joined-by-christian-protest-group-57261/"]Christians[/url], [url="http://m.christianpost.com/news/occupy-wall-street-joined-by-christian-protest-group-57261/"]celebrities[/url], [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/occupy-colleges-occupy-wall-street_n_1008619.html"]students[/url], [url="http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-11/wall_street/30265981_1_class-warfare-protesters-pimco"]the manager of the world's largest bond fund[/url], [url="http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-four-charts-that-explain-what-the-protesters-are-angry-about-2011-10"]media mogul Henry Blodget[/url], [url="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/blackrock-chief-fink-defends-occupy-wall-street-protesters.html"]the head of the world's biggest asset management firm[/url], [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8svbm4WYmU&feature=youtu.be"]economist Jeffery Sachs[/url], [url="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/05/336510/bernanke-occupy-wall-street/"]Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke[/url], [url="http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/11/iraq_veterans_at_occupy_wall_street"]veterans[/url], and [url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046314/Occupy-Wall-Street-protests-Senior-citizens-veterans-NYs-streets.html"]senior citizens[/url].

[dominicansoul]

[url="http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=21750"]http://www.catholicv...dex.php?p=21750[/url]

[quote]
At the recent economic “occupy” demonstration in Rome, the protesters decided to take their anger out on…our Blessed Mother! What?…Did the Virgin Mary take away their jobs? Did the Immaculate Mother ruin the Euro? Did the sweet Mother of Christ endorse the rotten assets of Euro-nation banks? No.

Whatever we think about the OccupyWallStreet protests and their inter/national spin-offs, can we all agree that the destruction of private property, and especially religious property, is wrong?

Some people are trying to compare the OccupyWallStreet (OWS) protests with the Tea Party movement. I’ve watched both groups closely and the number of arrests and examples of destruction and civil disobedience displayed by OWS is exponentially greater.
Whatever the [i]causes[/i] of both groups’ protests, the [i]effects[/i] of their protests couldn’t be more different.
And frankly, when it comes to evaluating these protests, by their fruits you will know them.

[i]UPDATE[/i] — some readers are trying to claim this vandalism was an “accident.” Oh?
"The Vatican has condemned Saturday’s violent clashes in central Rome including an attack by protesters on a church in which a crucifix and a statue of the Virgin Mary were destroyed.
…“When I came down, I saw the entrance door had been smashed in,” the church’s parish priest, Father Giuseppe Ciucci, was quoted by Italian media as saying.
“The Virgin Mary’s statue, which was at the entrance, had been taken away and I saw it had been thrown into the street and smashed,” he said.
“I went into the sacristy and I saw the door there was also destroyed. The large crucifix at the entrance had been vandalized,” he added.
Hundreds of protesters torched cars, smashed banks and hurled rocks at police during the clashes. Tens of thousands of people had been protesting against government cutbacks and Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi."[/quote]

Edited October 18, 2011 by dominicansoul

[BG45]

Two more links, one for each side:

[url="http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/10/18/police-worry-as-wall-street-protestors-pine-for-world-series-spotlight/"]St. Louis worries Occupy movement may disrupt World Series, First Lady visit.[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/user/SgtShamarThomasUSMC"]USMC veteran speaks out against NYPD brutality, says that he was involved in a riot in Iraq and US forces treated those people better than the NYPD is treating American citizens.[/url]

[Winchester]

[img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320250_275266155837833_134335169930933_924557_843491886_n.jpg[/img]

[Adrestia]

I thought this would make Winnie feel better.

[size=5][b]Gallup poll: Government more to blame than Wall Street for woes[/b][/size]


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/10/gallup-poll-occupy-wall-street.html

[Winchester]

I couldn't get past Jabba in the tank top.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1318879490' post='2322806']
So who supports OWS, or at least says that it understands why they're protesting? Let's see: [url="http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/figures-nazi-party-throws-support-behind-occupy-wall-street-movement/"]Commies[/url], [url="http://www.theblaze.com/stories/american-nazi-party-endorses-occupy-wall-streets-courage-tells-members-to-support-protests-and-fight-judeo-capitalist-banksters/"]Nazis[/url], [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/05/ron-paul-calls-occupy-wall-street-a-legitimate-effort/"]Republicans[/url], [url="http://nation.foxnews.com/democrats/2011/10/17/ems-deepen-associations-occupy-movement"]Democrats[/url], [url="http://m.christianpost.com/news/occupy-wall-street-joined-by-christian-protest-group-57261/"]Christians[/url], [url="http://m.christianpost.com/news/occupy-wall-street-joined-by-christian-protest-group-57261/"]celebrities[/url], [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/13/occupy-colleges-occupy-wall-street_n_1008619.html"]students[/url], [url="http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-11/wall_street/30265981_1_class-warfare-protesters-pimco"]the manager of the world's largest bond fund[/url], [url="http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-four-charts-that-explain-what-the-protesters-are-angry-about-2011-10"]media mogul Henry Blodget[/url], [url="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-05/blackrock-chief-fink-defends-occupy-wall-street-protesters.html"]the head of the world's biggest asset management firm[/url], [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8svbm4WYmU&feature=youtu.be"]economist Jeffery Sachs[/url], [url="http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/05/336510/bernanke-occupy-wall-street/"]Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke[/url], [url="http://www.democracynow.org/2011/10/11/iraq_veterans_at_occupy_wall_street"]veterans[/url], and [url="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046314/Occupy-Wall-Street-protests-Senior-citizens-veterans-NYs-streets.html"]senior citizens[/url].
[/quote]
I see what you did there. You find an example or two from a group and then take that as endorsement by the entire group. Why not just cut to the chase? Find one person that supports Wallstockers and just say "Earth supports Occupy protest?"

Winchester,

The 5 steps of corporatism reminds me of the story of small toy makers vs. big toy makers. Remember the Chinese made toy scare a few years ago? The crisis was some Chinese made toys contained lead. (Note: This was not an issue with American made toys.) The feds exclaimed in Superman fashion, "This is a job for government!" So, the elves (or is that demons?) in DC came up with new regulations which required toy makers to test the lead content of their toys, no matter where they are made.

The big toy makers, Mattel, Hasbro, et. al. were all for this. Why would big corporations be for more regulation? Because the smaller toy makers could not afford the testing the government was requiring. The government was helping squeeze out the competition.

[BG45]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1318967983' post='2323303']
I see what you did there. You find an example or two from a group and then take that as endorsement by the entire group. Why not just cut to the chase? Find one person that supports Wallstockers and just say "Earth supports Occupy protest?"

[/quote]

I see what you did there. You automatically assumed I was trying to say every single person in each of those groups supports it. Which I wasn't.

Unlike some in this thread, I don't call all members of certain groups a monolithic entity. Not all Democrats are pro-OWS, not all Nazis are pro-OWS, not all Communists are pro-OWS, not all veterans are pro-OWS. However, when I've read many of the posts in this thread, that is exactly the message I would take away from the thread, and that's exactly what I was lampooning. I'm sick of reading blanket statements, mostly from the self-righteous Right in this thread, about how 'all those people are all the same' or "The Democrats all support this" or "It's just a bunch of anarchists, they're all anarchists".

Edited October 18, 2011 by BG45

[Winchester]

Groups don't exist.