The Cloisterite Family

[ToJesusMyHeart]

WOW. This is a mess now, isn't it?

 

  :(

Edited December 23, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart

[AccountDeleted]

Honestly, I wasn't really referring to you when I said it seems like bullying is going on. 

 

The bottom line is this: Gemma is not trying to hurt anybody or lead anybody astray. She is trying to help. She cares. She wants people to find their religious vocations. Continuous interrogation when she has stated quite plainly that she cannot answer all the questions at once just seems uncharitable and unfair. 

 

It seems expressing my thoughts has gotten us nowhere. 

 

Peace be with you, and a happy Advent. 

 

Now it does seem like we are beating a dead horse but you need to stop and really try to look at it from a different perspective.

 

No one is saying that Gemma is intentionally trying to hurt anyone or that she doesn't care and want to help. But sometimes good intentions aren't enough. There also has to be accountability and responsibility and reliability and validity. Cloister Outreach has none of these. You keep bringing the topic up when I am content to let SrLaurel continue with her questions after the new year when Gemma said she is free to answer them. And she should answer them if she wants to be taken seriously and if she wants to prove her good intentions by offering substantive evidence that Cloister Outreach is not an imaginary community, simply existing on a listserv somewhere. There is a difference between saying that one has a listserve group and one is establishing a real new community with diocesan approval or a canonist who is guiding them (former claims). As long as the claims do not exceed reality, then there is nothing wrong with a virtual community for those discerning - basically a support group of like minded individuals. It is when people are led into believing that this virtual group is the same as discerning hermit life or religious life on a diocesan level that things get messy. Indeed, I think that SrLaurel is one of the best people to ask these questions as she already has the knowledge and experience to judge whether the answers are adequate or not.

 

As you have not been here very long, you are probably not aware of the long history of claims made on behalf of Cloister Outreach and the controversy when some of those claims were found to be untrue.  I offer a voice of support for the questions because I wasted time many years ago looking into CO only to discover that the emperor had no clothes on. I would hope that no one else is (intentionally or unintentionally) led astray into a non-existent community, thinking that it will one day lead them to consecration. One minute we are told that no one has been solemnly professed because there hasn't been time yet, and the next we are told that CO has been around for over 20 years. I do not say that any harm was intended to me, but time was certainly wasted which is harm enough for someone my age!

 

Rather than seeing the questions as 'endless interrogation', why not try to see what they really are, a sincere desire to discover the reality of CO in the interests of all discerners. What is valid will remain and what is not, should not remain. If it is the work of God, then she should be proud to answer any numbers of questions about it without becoming defensive or claiming to be persecuted by others. She (and you) should want to answer the questions, in order to help others understand the truth, whatever that truth may be. Only those who are deceitful feel a need to run from honest and sincere questions about the validity of their work.

 

In fact, Gemma withdrew from this thread several pages ago but said that she would return in the new year to answer what she has not been able to answer so far. If it goes into a few slightly different tangents about hermits and religious communities in the meantime, it will at least keep it alive until she is able to respond more fully. I hope she takes time to think about her claims and then returns to set things straight. She has already addressed some of these issues on her on yahoo group - saying that they do not have diocesan approval and are not seeking it. She also made some post to the effect that private vows should not be made which really confused me because this is between an individual and God. These are things she might address when she returns.

 

And to FCC - no, it isn't a mess when mature adults get together to discuss a serious topic. It's only a mess if people start to throw around emotionally charged words like bully and persecution when what is being asked for is clarification. Adults should be able to have a discussion even when they disagree with each other.

[Gabriela]

I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics?

 

I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day.

[AccountDeleted]

I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics?

 

I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day.

 

SrLaurel would be the person to give you a more definitive answer for consecrated hermits. I can tell you what I did while discerning with the Hermits of Bethlehem, which is different of course, being a laura, and I could tell you what I did as a lay hermit living in the Australian bush for 8 months.

 

At the laura, we each had a job to do that would benefit the laura - mine was simply weeding and using the weed trimmer around the property. One hermit made icons to sell, another would do something else. We prayed the Office 7 times a day in private and did mental prayer and spritiual reading. We had meeting with Father Romano once a week or every two weeks, met with our SD about the same, and saw the Confessor once every two weeks.  We did our own laundry and helped with chores around the main house (I did dishes) and did our own laundry. It was pretty much what those in a religious community do but we spent a lot more time alone.

 

When I lived in the bush, I had to maintain the cabin, drive into town for supplies and do chores. I had no electricity or heat or fridge etc so things took a lot longer to do - I washed by hand and used wood for heating etc. But the main focus of the day for me was the Divine Office again, mental prayer, spiritual reading and intercessory prayers for the Church, the Holy Father, priests and others. We only had Mass twice a month out there (lay led Communion Service twice a month and no Mass on the last Sunday) but when I could afford it, I would drive into a neighbouring town and attend Mass there.

 

I hope SrLaurel writes a bit more about the hermit life, but her blog is a great source of information as well.

[Sister_Laurel]

I don't think I said you were called towards them? I was simply offering some praise to Father Romano for his good work and kindness. As for the 'sisters' comment, I just wondered if there was a confusion since there are sisters living next door to the hermits. And when I was there, the laura actually had more men than women, so I didn't really think of them as 'sisters' so much as hermits. No offence was intended so I hope you didn't take it that way. My response was more for clarification than anything else. I loved being there but I wasn't called to their life either.

 

As SrLaurel points out, they do sort of cross the boundary between hermits and community, with the one rule. They remind me a little of the hermits on Mt Carmel who came together and asked St Albert to write a rule of life for them (which the Carmelites still use today). Carmelites actually still refer to themselves as 'hermits in community' but technically (and canononically) they are not hermits even if they have some similarities.

 

Now that SrLaurel has mentioned it, I wonder why Father Romano didn't just create a mixed religious community rather than using canon 603 to consecrate the hermits. They do share the same Plan of Life and have one superior like a religious community. They don't pray the Office in community but they are not solitary hermits all of the time either because they have Vespers once a week and study and Recreation on Sunday. They are allowed to choose another spiritual director if they want although Father Romano was officially the 'desert father'. I met with him from time to time but I also had another SD of my choosing and a Confessor. It is an interesting mix of lifestyles (and vocations) - could suit some people and not others I suppose.

 

One of the differences between lauras and communities is the fact of separate Rules with guidelines for elements shared by the whole group and which allow the laura to function or exist. This allows the hermits to move on and continue living their own Rules and horaria should something happen to the laura. Commentators on Canon 603 are clear that even if the Sacred Congregation allows for lauras (and it does although the canon says nothing at all about it) these should not rise to the level of a community. Other differences include the right of the individual hermits to determine how they make a living (doing spiritual direction, for instance), separate bank accounts, responsibility for one's own insurance, control of one's own use of media, control of own visitors so long as these do not intrude upon the silence and solitude of the entire group, choice of own director and confessor, different diocesan delegates if that is what the hermit chooses, etc, no common habit or logos, no superior, no formation program (lauras are composed of already-professed diocesan hermits), and several others. Coming together to pray part of the time is not a problem unless it is a required thing. These distinctions are becoming clearer as people reflect on canon 603 and its appropriate and inappropriate usage.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogsport.com

[Sister_Laurel]

We can only drag this on for so long. Let's leave Gemma in peace and stop pestering her. It's not getting anybody anywhere and it's doing more harm than good.

 

I don't think Gemma is still involved (at least not until the holidays are over when she may be able to return) and frankly, until you mentioned her name, the thread had continued without reference to her. Certainly there is no bullying going on.

 

However, I do think the way the subject has developed helps people discern the difference between valid experiments with canon 603 and invalid ones. While canon 603 is VERY flexible it is not meant to be used as a stopgap so that people can avoid the established process of becoming an institute of consecrated life in the church, or for those who cannot become professed and consecrated in some other way. It is not meant for those who simply live pious lives alone, but instead defines a clear life of eremitical solitude --- a very different matter. Clearing up some of the misunderstandings, abuses, and stereotypes is a good thing I think.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[Sister_Laurel]

All the best to you in Carmel, nunsense. This thread just reeks of bullying and although the topic has shifted, the bullying is still here to witness if so desired, and I really wish that wasn't the case. Some say bullying has not been done here, but when so many are saying that it feels like bullying is the case, then perhaps it's wise to stop the conversation just because of the appearance of such uncharitable behavior. 

 

Yes, I'm new here comparatively, but that shouldn't automatically discredit me. I've more posts than srlaurel here, so if you're willing to accept her as a credible source, my amount of posts on here shouldn't be a factor either. I'm just tired of this thread and its negative connotations towards Gemma and CO, when Gemma has been nothing but helpful in my own discernment. 

 

Again, all the best to you in Carmel. :)

 

Perhaps this is not what you meant and you could clarify that, but this is the first time I have ever heard that the number of posts on Phatmass is a way of judging credibility or expertise in a specific area. I am here as a diocesan hermit, systematic theologian, and person familiar with the canons governing those living canonical eremitical life, especially under canon 603. The fact is I am publicly responsible for this vocation as well as for my own personal living it out and I care a lot when people are being mislead about it. My expertise in these things has nothing to do with the number of times I post  or don't post on Phatmass (though I would bet folks might question it if I was here posting all the time!). Even so,  I thought Nunsense merely referred to your relative newness in relation to a long history here of  both asking questions about CO and of the original poster evading those or responding with verifiable untruths; I thought her point was simply that perhaps you were unaware of that history. I didn't think she was questioning your own credibility per se.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

httP://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[Sister_Laurel]

The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents.

 

Anyway, I am sad that you think I was sarcastic or something about wishing you well in Carmel. I was not sarcastic or anything but sincere. I do wish you the best and I really wish you didn't think I was insincere just because we have a disagreement about the way this thread has been managed. 

 

Carmel is a beautiful place and I've been at several Carmelite monasteries for Mass and prayer with the nuns. I truly hope your calling is in your UK Carmel and that you spend your days in peace and joy, uniting yourself with Jesus as you yearn for.

 

I wonder which, if any, of Gemma's groups actually do exist. Listserv groups are not the issue precisely. Neither, however, do these constitute groups which are capable of becoming public associations of the faithful. When someone speaks of a proposed inastitute of consecrated life which then, because of many problems, decides to "go the eremitical route", when, despite no background or true expertise in any relevant area, they claim to have composed a formation program for people wanting to join this "group", questions needs to be asked and answered.

 

When they claim to have the support of their Bishop and a canonist guiding this vocation "every step of the way" (and related claims) despite evidence to the contrary and later claim to not even KNOW whether or not CO has the support of their Bishop, when they tell people who join such a group that they will be able to be either lay or consecrated hermits (in fact it is VERY difficult to be admitted to consecration), when they ask these people to adopt a common Plan of Life and which therefore circumvents canon 603's requirement that diocesan hermits write their own Rules or Plans of Life, then questions need to be asked and adequately answered.

 

When belonging to such a group and seeking to live as a hermit is a temporary thing UNTIL the cenobitical expression can be established in real life and therefore making use of canon 603 to profess individual "hermits" becomes a matter of fraud, when such "hermits" are dressed up in habits and begin using titles and post-nomial initials despite these requiring permission and being symbols of public rights and obligations, when Gemma claims to be a lay hermit despite being a wife and mother of two boys living at home --- then questions need to be asked and answers need to be forthcoming.

 

From your own post we know that ONE listserv group exists in some sense (though apparently from what you say it is not Gemma's own) and that it has been helpful to you. Unfortunately, that answers none of the other questions, and equally unfortunately, Gemma herself is not the one making this clear. By the way, if you really wish for people to drop their questions of Gemma or her projects, why are you making claims on her behalf? Are you aware your own claims only serve to raise questions of reality, soundness, truthfulness, etc, yet again.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[AccountDeleted]

One of the differences between lauras and communities is the fact of separate Rules with guidelines for elements shared by the whole group and which allow the laura to function or exist. This allows the hermits to move on and continue living their own Rules and horaria should something happen to the laura. Commentators on Canon 603 are clear that even if the Sacred Congregation allows for lauras (and it does although the canon says nothing at all about it) these should not rise to the level of a community. Other differences include the right of the individual hermits to determine how they make a living (doing spiritual direction, for instance), separate bank accounts, responsibility for one's own insurance, control of one's own use of media, control of own visitors so long as these do not intrude upon the silence and solitude of the entire group, choice of own director and confessor, different diocesan delegates if that is what the hermit chooses, etc, no common habit or logos, no superior, no formation program (lauras are composed of already-professed diocesan hermits), and several others. Coming together to pray part of the time is not a problem unless it is a required thing. These distinctions are becoming clearer as people reflect on canon 603 and its appropriate and inappropriate usage.

 

best,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogsport.com

 

Since you have made this clear, I can see that difference between a laura and a community and it does seem as if the HoB are more of a community. Thank you for making that clear.  I loved living with the Hermits of Bethlehem but I did find the hybrid lifestyle neither one nor the other, so perhaps that is why I didn't feel a call there. I loved hermit life but I felt if we were going to live under a rule and requirements of a community then we needed to pray togeether as a community too. Things to think about. Thank you.

[Sister_Laurel]

I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics?

 

I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day.

 

Let me give you a general sense of my own week days in the hermitage. From 4:00am to 8:00 am I spend the time in quiet prayer (1 hr), Lauds, journaling and related prayer. At 8:30 I am at usually the parish for Mass and then have breakfast. From about 9:30 - 12:00 noon I do lectio (Scripture) and some Scripture study. At 12:00n I tend to pray again (Office or a psalm from Mass) and then have lunch. On days I do not participate in Mass I have a Communion service at the hermitage. This period from 4:00a -1:00p is the heart of my day.

 

The afternoons are variable. Usually I nap or take a walk after lunch. (Depends on what kind of night I had.) I have SD clients in the afternoons on Mondays and Fridays. Otherwise I will write, read theology, spend some time meditating on Friday's Scriptures, and do errands of various sorts.

 

Evenings begin with Vespers, dinner, and then more journaling, or other writing or lectio (usually not Scripture), etc. On Wednesdays I have orchestra (which is actually written into my Rule) so Wednesday afternoons I tend to spend some time practicing. Another period of quiet prayer and Compline complete the day. Friday evenings I have SD clients before this and Friday mornings I may do a Liturgy of the Word with Communion if there is no priest at the parish.

 

Saturdays differ in the afternoons and I may also go to Vigil Mass in the evening. Sundays differ in that I go to 9:30 Mass, have coffee with a Dominican friend when that is possible, and tend to do a different kind of reading or some more journaling in the afternooon. The evening schedule is usually the same as the week days.

 

Every hermit lives a horarium which serves them best. For a long time I was up at 2:00am to pray vigils but in fact 4:00am works better for me and, like some Camaldolese, I treat 4:00am - 8:00 am as a time of vigil.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

Since you have made this clear, I can see that difference between a laura and a community and it does seem as if the HoB are more of a community. Thank you for making that clear.  I loved living with the Hermits of Bethlehem but I did find the hybrid lifestyle neither one nor the other, so perhaps that is why I didn't feel a call there. I loved hermit life but I felt if we were going to live under a rule and requirements of a community then we needed to pray togeether as a community too. Things to think about. Thank you.

 

Most welcome.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er DIo

[beatitude]

The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents.

 

Setting up a listserv is not the same as founding a religious community. Anyone can do it. I don't think there is any doubt that people may join Gemma's multitude of Yahoo! groups - the doubt is about whether these groups can deliver what they promise.

 

I've read Gemma's page on the Holy Innocents, in which Karen Lhotka describes how she felt a strong call to pro-life ministry as a religious sister and was in tears after being turned away by both the Sisters of Life and the Servants of the Gospel of Life. She approached other communities and was turned away by them also. She wrote to Gemma after seeing Gemma's ideas for the Holy Innocents and was thrilled to be 'accepted' by Cloister Outreach. This immediately raises red flags for me, as what I see from this picture is a woman who wants to become a religious badly enough to try anything. She goes from seeking entry to any pro-life community that will take her to being a 'foundress', with Gemma telling her that she must have arrived at Cloister Outreach in response to Gemma's visions - of red-habited nuns praying outside Tennessee abortion clinics, of St Francis de Sales. The whole thing reads like a clumsy attempt at a medieval hagiography.

When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation?

I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. Yet people who question her ability to participate in this thread do not question her ability to 'found' multiple religious communities via listserv, and I think this is what Nunsense meant when she worried about people being deceived and getting sucked into projects that have no basis in reality.

[Sister_Laurel]

Setting up a listserv is not the same as founding a religious community. Anyone can do it. I don't think there is any doubt that people may join Gemma's multitude of Yahoo! groups - the doubt is about whether these groups can deliver what they promise.

 

I've read Gemma's page on the Holy Innocents, in which Karen Lhotka describes how she felt a strong call to pro-life ministry as a religious sister and was in tears after being turned away by both the Sisters of Life and the Servants of the Gospel of Life. She approached other communities and was turned away by them also. She wrote to Gemma after seeing Gemma's ideas for the Holy Innocents and was thrilled to be 'accepted' by Cloister Outreach. This immediately raises red flags for me, as what I see from this picture is a woman who wants to become a religious badly enough to try anything. She goes from seeking entry to any pro-life community that will take her to being a 'foundress', with Gemma telling her that she must have arrived at Cloister Outreach in response to Gemma's visions - of red-habited nuns praying outside Tennessee abortion clinics, of St Francis de Sales. The whole thing reads like a clumsy attempt at a medieval hagiography.

When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation?

I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. Yet people who question her ability to participate in this thread do not question her ability to 'found' multiple religious communities via listserv, and I think this is what Nunsense meant when she worried about people being deceived and getting sucked into projects that have no basis in reality.

 

So the "foundress" of the Holy Innocents listserv is really Gemma who then put another person in charge of it? In that way for instance she distinguishes between CONF and CO but, given other factors (especially past untruths and evasions), it sounds like a shell game to me or a situation analogous to corporations that sets up shell companies. It would be important to hear how Gemma is truly involved in this, and also what expertise and responsibilities the new foundress actually has. Thus, I also wonder if the new "foundresses'" disappointment and desperation is not being exploited in this situation. Sometimes religious communities will not accept someone right off. They need this person to get extra assistance and do some personal work first --- sometimes extra SD and often some therapy as well. It is hard to be put off this way, but genuine vocations will accept the needed wait, do the work, get the assistance, and then try again. The people I have worked with in such situations are often amazing persons and the work they do is outstanding. But it is also completely necessary to respond to God's own call.

 

If this person was not suitable at all for some reason then does it really make sense for Gemma, a woman with NO experience of religious life, to immediately make her a "foundress" of a similar "group" (one supposedly on the way to becoming an institute of consecrated life itself, for instance) and put her in charge of seeking support from her Bishop? (I can think of one situation where this MIGHT be a good idea --- if she was rejected because of physical illness for instance --- but in the main it seems reckless and without real care for either Karen or those who will join the list.) SImilar questions must be asked about anyone Gemma signs up as a "co-founder" for any of CO's proposed "charisms," --- at least by anyone wanting to give their lives to this project. As folks may have noted, the list of required information from Bishops for such projects sending in regular reports includes extensive information of everyone involved and joining the project. Education (transcripts of all colleges and universities, etc), health, psychological well being, history in religious life, marriage, divorce and annullments, etc and more are required for the Bishop to evaluate such groups and those that lead them.

 

Again questions are legitimate and important for ANY project that claims to be a new foundation or charism --- especially if they accept people in a way which diverts them from other paths. They must be raised and answered honestly and competently. And again CO raises those questions and many others.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

[ToJesusMyHeart]

When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation?

No, I do not know if this is true about meeting with the bishop. I will be happy to share with you the information that I have from emailing with Gemma about the work with the bishop. It would have been the bishop of Knoxville if she had met with him. 

 

From what I understand, right now Karen and Gemma are trying to build a solid community of committed discerners before they take any further steps. Here is the information I have received:

 

"The Sisters of the Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla are in an umbrella association known as the Cloister Outreach Affiliate New Foundations, better known as CONF.  We have numerous proposed charisms, several of which are in the process of emergence, the Holy Innocents being one of them.  This charism was passed by the first bishop of Knoxville, who said he had no problems with it. 

 

That being said, part of discernment is finding the Rule which speaks to you.  The Holy Ghost works on attraction.  The Holy Innocents sisters will be following the Rule of St. Augustine, and will be Third Order Regular Dominicans.  Will they ever be aggregated to the Dominican Order?  They may be eventually, but that will take 25 years or more.

 

New charisms begin as lay associations, and those comprising the Holy Innocents sisters will form a lay-association-within-a-lay-association.  Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path.  While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL.  She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV).  DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment.

 

Part of the Holy Innocents charism is to practice non-violence toward the pro-choice faction.  DGAL implements this by signing Dr. Martin Luther King's promise of non-violence.  Everyone on the list has signed it. 

 

We are small, but that is good because the souls we have on the group are serious about what they're doing.  I would rather have a small list of serious persons than a list of thousands and I be the only one doing anything.

 

We'll take things slowly.  Not everyone is called to be an adherent to an emerging charism.  Such does require a special grace. 

 

Our CONF communities are proposed for those within the Latin Mass community, and for older women.  On my main site, I do have a list of EFLR communities.  To my knowledge, the Holy Innocents may be the only pro-life one with the EFLR emphasis."

 

I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. 

I have been told the following:

 

Karen is the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla Preparatory Association and she lives in the Knoxville, TN area which the order will be located. She's in her early forties.

When there are enough other people who want to start the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla with Karen, then they will live together in a beguinage (non vowed women living the religious life) for 5 years and from there they can ask the bishop to establish a Public Lay Association so that they can become a Private Association of the Christian Faithful with the Intention of becoming a Religious Institute. This is the point at which they become Sisters and wear the habit. With time and growth become an Public Religious Institute. 

Karen is in the process of getting an apartment across from one of the Knoxville abortuaries for the beguinage and get it ready for when more discerning women come. It is on the listserv as Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life that discerning women get to know one another, share ideas about what they would do as an order, grow spiritually, and do Pro-Life work where they live while the others come.
 

Now, as for me, I'm still very much discerning my vocation. I am feeling less called to the Holy Innocents and more called to a different community--but of course, I don't know how long it will take until our Lord reveals His specific will to me in regards to which community I should join. I'm happy to be a part of DGAL for now, simply because it is a helpful means of accessing pro-life prayer material, but I don't want to give the impression of making a deeper level of commitment with DGAL than I am actually making. :)

 

Apologies for the lengthy post. God bless you and a very merry fourth Sunday of Advent!

Edited December 23, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart

[Sister_Laurel]

No, I do not know if this is true about meeting with the bishop. I will be happy to share with you the information that I have from emailing with Gemma about the work with the bishop. It would have been the bishop of Knoxville if she had met with him. 

 

From what I understand, right now Karen and Gemma are trying to build a solid community of committed discerners before they take any further steps. Here is the information I have received:

 

"The Sisters of the Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla are in an umbrella association known as the Cloister Outreach Affiliate New Foundations, better known as CONF.  We have numerous proposed charisms, several of which are in the process of emergence, the Holy Innocents being one of them.  This charism was passed by the first bishop of Knoxville, who said he had no problems with it. 

 

That being said, part of discernment is finding the Rule which speaks to you.  The Holy Ghost works on attraction.  The Holy Innocents sisters will be following the Rule of St. Augustine, and will be Third Order Regular Dominicans.  Will they ever be aggregated to the Dominican Order?  They may be eventually, but that will take 25 years or more.

 

New charisms begin as lay associations, and those comprising the Holy Innocents sisters will form a lay-association-within-a-lay-association.  Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path.  While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL.  She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV).  DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment.

 

Part of the Holy Innocents charism is to practice non-violence toward the pro-choice faction.  DGAL implements this by signing Dr. Martin Luther King's promise of non-violence.  Everyone on the list has signed it. 

 

We are small, but that is good because the souls we have on the group are serious about what they're doing.  I would rather have a small list of serious persons than a list of thousands and I be the only one doing anything.

 

We'll take things slowly.  Not everyone is called to be an adherent to an emerging charism.  Such does require a special grace. 

 

Our CONF communities are proposed for those within the Latin Mass community, and for older women.  On my main site, I do have a list of EFLR communities.  To my knowledge, the Holy Innocents may be the only pro-life one with the EFLR emphasis."

 

I have been told the following:

 

Karen is the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla Preparatory Association and she lives in the Knoxville, TN area which the order will be located. She's in her early forties.

When there are enough other people who want to start the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla with Karen, then they will live together in a beguinage (non vowed women living the religious life) for 5 years and from there they can ask the bishop to establish a Public Lay Association so that they can become a Private Association of the Christian Faithful with the Intention of becoming a Religious Institute. This is the point at which they become Sisters and wear the habit. With time and growth become an Public Religious Institute. 

Karen is in the process of getting an apartment across from one of the Knoxville abortuaries for the beguinage and get it ready for when more discerning women come. It is on the listserv as Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life that discerning women get to know one another, share ideas about what they would do as an order, grow spiritually, and do Pro-Life work where they live while the others come.
 

Now, as for me, I'm still very much discerning my vocation. I am feeling less called to the Holy Innocents and more called to a different community--but of course, I don't know how long it will take until our Lord reveals His specific will to me in regards to which community I should join. I'm happy to be a part of DGAL for now, simply because it is a helpful means of accessing pro-life prayer material, but I don't want to give the impression of making a deeper level of commitment with DGAL than I am actually making. :)

 

Apologies for the lengthy post. God bless you and a very merry fourth Sunday of Advent!

 

I want to call attention to one sentence in particular in the above, namely, [[Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path.  While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL.  She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV).  DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment.]]

 

Gemma has clearly written this and I wonder where she gets the notion that Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit and then seeking adherents for her future community --- apparently a community dedicated to anti-abortion activity. I am troubled by much of what comes straight from Gemma's website (and that includes much in the above selection) but in this specific case it seems clear that in Gemma's mind canon 603 profession IS nothing more than a stopgap way to get someone consecrated before accepting other members of a proposed community. A vocation to Canon 603 is not about feeling attracted to a bit of physical solitude or having the appropriate temperament for such a thing SO THAT one may really do something else (cenobitical apostolic life). It has to do with feeling sincerely called to the silence of solitude as the way to one's own human wholeness and holiness and thus, to the salvation of the world.

 

This use of canon 603 as a means to something else is precisely what I have been speaking about as an abuse of canon 603 and precisely what Gemma denied doing. I think it is good that Karen did not choose this route but that does not change the way Gemma thinks about the matter or writes about it on her website.

 

Meanwhile, what makes a person a foundress? Are they a foundress if they do another person's bidding and live out that same person's project and envisioned values or is there something more involved than this? I believe the latter is the case. Further, if CONF is truly distinct from CO as opposed to simply being an extension of it, and if these individual projects are "affiliates" then shouldn't it be composed of completely independent projects and founders which or who have NOTHING whatever to do with Gemma's imagined "charisms" and then come together (affiliate with CO) as CONF? And finally, we should be clear that if a Bishop doesn't stop a person from proceeding with forming a private association this does NOT indicate approval of any sort. The person has a right to form such an association and does not need approval. I am clear that Gemma says the Bishop passed on the charism, not on anything else. Once again, posting things from Gemma's own website raises lots of questions.

 

Sincerely,

Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio

Stillsong Hermitage

Diocese of Oakland

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

[StClare_OraProNobis]

Sr. Laurel- I really and truly do not mean this to be snarky....I am just trying to understand something.  As a Christian I have to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet in order to be faithful to my vocation- and I am not called to be a HERMIT.  Do you have such limits in place?  Does not spending so much time here interfere with your solitary prayer?  Would this not be a distraction from your vocation?  Maybe I am misunderstanding what a hermit is, but I always thought it really meant a lot of separation from the "world" and from a lot of interaction with other people.  It would seem to me that if a person has very limited leeway to spend interacting with others that maybe it should be directed towards something charitable- like volunteering at a soup kitchen.  You might say that volunteering at a soup kitchen would break your solitude, which leads me back to the point of how does being on the internet interacting with people not?