Antigonos Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I have found it very informative. Especially that there are "communities" of hermits, and at what point the hermit is more of a community member than a hermit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blessed&Grateful Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I too found it informative as I never really understood life as a hermit before. And now I have a glimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister_Laurel Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 I have found it very informative. Especially that there are "communities" of hermits, and at what point the hermit is more of a community member than a hermit. One clarification if you don't mind. The question for me is not when a hermit is more a member of a community than a hermit. Camaldolese monks living in a hermitage must be both and so must Carthusians. The paradox is that a Hermit's solitude is ALWAYS a matter of community, even when the hermit is a recluse. We speak of hermits living in the heart of the Church, and sometimes even of them being the heart of the Church. Diocesan hermits (c 603 hermits) are usually integrally related to their parish communities and depend on that relationship as nourishing and challenging. The question is a bit different I think. It revolves around when canon 603 can be used appropriately or not. Canonists are clear that lauras (which the CICLSAL has approved) cannot rise to the level of true communities, communities in the canonical sense. That is we are not talking about a single Rule, common dress, common superior or delegates, but instead individual Rules written by the hermits themselves, freedom with regard to SD, finances, media use, visitors, work, delegate, etc. Canon 603 hermits are and remain solitary hermits even in a laura. Should the laura disband or dissolve the hermits MUST be able to continue living eremitical lives in another context. In other words, one seeking profession under canon 603 does not discern or commit to a vocation to a laura, much less to a community, but to a vocation as a solitary hermit. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) I just want to point out that it is up to the moderators to close a thread, and I'm pretty sure no amount of personal opinions expressed regarding whether a post should be closed would sway them in their judgments of whether a thread violates PM rules or not. A lot of disagreement happens in PM, and not always in the most charitable terms. I have seen some threads stay open way past the point at which I ceased wanting to participate. But it never occurred to me to announce that I thought a thread should be closed, because we all have the option to steer ourselves clear of such discussions and to allow others to continue in them if they please. I think that voicing the opinion over and over again that a thread should be closed because you personally do not like what's being said in it is indeed an attempt to silence others. If you don't like it, just avoid it. Clearly this thread is helping a lot of people. And if/when it does come time to close it, trust that the PM moderators will make the proper judgment to do so. Edited December 24, 2012 by curiousing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antigonos Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 It's a bit past 11 p.m. here, and I'm off to bed, but thought I'd be the first to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas. Bethlehem would be visible from my house except that there's a low ridge between where I am and the town [it's only 4 km from downtown Jerusalem].The weather is fine and clear, a bit on the "crisp" side -- in the upper 40s [F] outside. Very often Christmas Eve is wet and windy but this year it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted December 24, 2012 Share Posted December 24, 2012 It is Christmas morning here in Melbourne and I am off to Mass but I wanted to wish everyone here a very Merry and Blessed Christmas. :) I have learned so much from this thread and hope I still have more to contribute myself before I leave for the UK and to learn from others. I am most interested in the differences between hermits and hermits in community and religious institutes. SrLaurel has really helped me understand some things about my own discernment in the past from what she has posted, especially as I discerned hermit life, both in community with the Carmelites as a religious institute, with the Hermits of Bethlehem in a laura and on my own while considering becoming a diocesan hermit. I am sorry that some people are uncomfortable with this thread, but as curiousing said, if you are not happy with it, please don't feel you have to continue stating this here or even reading here. Many threads go beyond that of the OP and then may or may not return to it. There is a button called UNFOLLOW at the top of the page for those who don't want to read more. I am one of those who has benefited from what has been posted by SrLaurel even if it is just to understand myself a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister_Laurel Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 It is Christmas morning here in Melbourne and I am off to Mass but I wanted to wish everyone here a very Merry and Blessed Christmas. :) I have learned so much from this thread and hope I still have more to contribute myself before I leave for the UK and to learn from others. I am most interested in the differences between hermits and hermits in community and religious institutes. SrLaurel has really helped me understand some things about my own discernment in the past from what she has posted, especially as I discerned hermit life, both in community with the Carmelites as a religious institute, with the Hermits of Bethlehem in a laura and on my own while considering becoming a diocesan hermit. I am sorry that some people are uncomfortable with this thread, but as curiousing said, if you are not happy with it, please don't feel you have to continue stating this here or even reading here. Many threads go beyond that of the OP and then may or may not return to it. There is a button called UNFOLLOW at the top of the page for those who don't want to read more. I am one of those who has benefited from what has been posted by SrLaurel even if it is just to understand myself a bit better. I have to say that your own careful discernment of several different forms of eremitical life is at least as edifying in this specific thread as any information I might post. At every point you have substantiated something I have merely argued (though I also know it from experience), namely, eremitical life is a rare vocation and involves a good deal more than living a pious life alone. The corollary is that canon 603 was meant to support the solitary form of eremitical life. There are sufficient congregations to support and nurture semi-eremitical life, but c 603 is the only means to live a publicly professed and consecrated solitary eremitical life. It is astounding to me the number of people who seize on it as a fallback or stopgap "vocation" simply because there is no other way for an individual to be professed and consecrated canonically. The canon is brief and details are not spelled out. The vocation is commonly either little-understood or held in contempt. Stereotypes are prevalent and used to do both of these. But the Church treats this vocation as a gift and hermits recognize that their life is especially significant to those who are isolated and devalued by society. Thus, we speak about the redemption of isolation and its transfiguration into true solitude. We also speak about "the silence of solitude" as the actual charism of the life. It needs nothing else to justify it --- no other ministries or purposes. Given the prevalence of those who could benefit from the witness of this rare vocation and who have NO CHOICE about living alone or joining a religious congregation, it becomes especially important to unmask efforts to use canon 603 as either a fallback or a stopgap means to profession or community life. The Church is, to a certain extent, experimenting with this vocation and as I have already noted, some Dioceses have refused to use c 603 to profess anyone. It is only as the Church comes to see the charism this vocation represents to those who are marginalized and isolated that we will see resistance to professing genuine vocations drop away. But the contrary is also true. If we do not make known the true nature of this canon and related vocation, and if we allow people to abuse the canon, then we will see more and more dioceses simply refuse to profess ANYONE accordingly. So, my thanks for sharing parts of your own story here. Canon 603 requires significant and careful discernment. Your posts have been important in underscoring this. Best wishes for a terrific Christmas to you and to all here. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) You may have covered this already, Sister, and if so just point me in the direction of the post. I haven't read all posts in this thread. The following seems to indicate that it is not absolutely necessary to seek consecration under Canon 603 for one to experience a call to solitude (under the terms of eremitical life, per se, which you have already covered I know) : Catholic Catechism - The eremitic life 920 Without always professing the three evangelical counsels publicly, hermits "devote their life to the praise of God and salvation of the world through a stricter separation from the world, the silence of solitude and assiduous prayer and penance."460 921 They manifest to everyone the interior aspect of the mystery of the Church, that is, personal intimacy with Christ. Hidden from the eyes of men, the life of the hermit is a silent preaching of the Lord, to whom he has surrendered his life simply because he is everything to him. Here is a particular call to find in the desert, in the thick of spiritual battle, the glory of the Crucified One. Incidentally, I have made private vows (evangelical counsels). After due consideration I do not consider it an eremitic life per se. I have a 'rule of life' and spiritual direction. I dont call my way of life anything other than lay life under private vows - it's sometimes this, sometimes that, a potpourri of an experience with Jesus as Way, Truth and Life - I guess :) But the Church treats this vocation as a gift and hermits recognize that their life is especially significant to those who are isolated and devalued by society. Thus, we speak about the redemption of isolation and its transfiguration into true solitude. We also speak about "the silence of solitude" as the actual charism of the life. It needs nothing else to justify it --- no other ministries or purposes. The above is very interesting to me personally since I have been through that "isolated and devalued by society" experience years ago now due to Bipolar. I think at some point you wrote about this in your blog. I did a couple of times try to find where you had written about it, but failed. Many I have known have left The Church (sufferers of mental illness I mean) as they just could not find their place and felt marginlized and tolerated only in their parish - and adrift - and I had this experience for years also............ "redemption of isolation and its transfiguration into true solitude" is a quite beautiful, powerful and most encouraging statement.............as is " It is only as the Church comes to see the charism this vocation represents to those who are marginalized and isolated". Would I be correct in stating that the "marginalized and isolated" may actually have a defined vocation also and possibly under Canon 603 - but still trying to 'find it's feet'? And that it is not absolutely necessary to seek consecration under this Canon to experience a call to eremitical soliltude, and that this is a quite specific way of life?............ and your blog is an excellent resource for what eremitical life is all about. From what I have read in this thread, it seems to me that the requirements for consecration under Canon 603 are quite demanding and at this point anyway probably far too demanding for many who are marginalized and isolated and do seek (or "had been seeking" is more accurate) to dedicate (transfigure) their experience in some way. Most do seek to do so with some sort of 'official confirmation' ("consecration") with the result of bitter disappointment with a feeling of rejection. I found my own personal way through my Baptism as vocation and call from God to follow Jesus and His Gospel. Joyful Christmas to you, Sister - and to all. Many blessings with Peace and with Joy in the coming 12 months. Edited December 25, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) I just would like to add that the only way I have been able to overcome isolation and marginalization due to Bipolar is through a shift of residence (Thank You, Lord) and by not telling the parish that I do suffer a mental illness. I did this with advice and much regret as I really dont see why I HAVE to hide my condition. My plan is that once accepted and functioning within the parish over a long term, I will then reveal Bipolar - although I am going to have to think very prayerfully beforehand as I have had the experience of attitudes undergoing radical change once I do reveal Bipolar and of others wanting to put distance on various levels between me and them, even though there was long term evidence of stability and so called 'normality'. I really should not have to do this to my mind as the dire problems of my fellow sufferers are close to my heart being one of them through a unique sharing and bond and having walked a mile with them. Joyful Christmas to all. Many blessings with Peace and with Joy in the coming 12 months. Edited December 25, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister_Laurel Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 You may have covered this already, Sister, and if so just point me in the direction of the post. I haven't read all posts in this thread. The following seems to indicate that it is not absolutely necessary to seek consecration under Canon 603 for one to experience a call to solitude (under the terms of eremitical life, per se, which you have already covered I know) : Incidentally, I have made private vows (evangelical counsels). After due consideration I do not consider it an eremitic life per se. I have a 'rule of life' and spiritual direction. I dont call my way of life anything other than lay life under private vows - it's sometimes this, sometimes that, a potpourri of an experience with Jesus as Way, Truth and Life - I guess :) The above is very interesting to me personally since I have been through that "isolated and devalued by society" experience years ago now due to Bipolar. I think at some point you wrote about this in your blog. I did a couple of times try to find where you had written about it, but failed. Many I have known have left The Church (sufferers of mental illness I mean) as they just could not find their place and felt marginlized and tolerated only in their parish - and adrift - and I had this experience for years also............ "redemption of isolation and its transfiguration into true solitude" is a quite beautiful, powerful and most encouraging statement.............as is " It is only as the Church comes to see the charism this vocation represents to those who are marginalized and isolated". Would I be correct in stating that the "marginalized and isolated" may actually have a defined vocation also and possibly under Canon 603 - but still trying to 'find it's feet'? And that it is not absolutely necessary to seek consecration under this Canon to experience a call to eremitical soliltude, and that this is a quite specific way of life?............ and your blog is an excellent resource for what eremitical life is all about. From what I have read in this thread, it seems to me that the requirements for consecration under Canon 603 are quite demanding and at this point anyway probably far too demanding for many who are marginalized and isolated and do seek (or "had been seeking" is more accurate) to dedicate (transfigure) their experience in some way. Most do seek to do so with some sort of 'official confirmation' ("consecration") with the result of bitter disappointment with a feeling of rejection. I found my own personal way through my Baptism as vocation and call from God to follow Jesus and His Gospel. If you look at the labels in the right hand upper column of the blog I think you will find what you are seeking under some of the following: vocation to chronic illness, validation vs redemption of isolation, time frames for becoming a diocesan hermit, and some in abuses of canon 603. There is also a post or two answering a question about mental illness and canon 603. If you still can't find what you were looking for email me and perhaps I can help. The requirements for admission to profession under canon 603 are sufficient to be able to see a person has the calling and will be able to live it fruitfully with a minimum of assistance. A diocese will judge each case on its own merits though. Since a diocesan hermit cannot simply move to another diocese and remain a diocesan hermit without the permission/agreement of BOTH Bishops involved, the original diocese assumes the risk and responsibility for any professions. Many diocesan hermits have chronic illnesses and have found that for them living with illness is an important part of becoming a true hermit. While it will always be true that this is a rare vocation I personally believe it is possible that among different demographic groups the chronically ill will have a larger number of vocations relatively speaking. What is more likely for most of the chronically ill is that they will resonate with the idea of a vocation to chronic illness, not because God desires or calls them to be ill, but because part of the Gospel is that God's power is made perfect in weakness. The Chronically ill can witness to the power of the Gospel in a more vivid and powerful way than most of those called to do so. One can do so as a lay hermit, for instance, or simply as a significant expression of a non-eremitical lay life as you yourself are doing now. What is true about eremitical life is that some forms of mental illness can be accommodated fairly well. This is true, for instance, with clinical depression which is controlled with medication and the same with some other mood disorders. Thought disorders are less well accommodated but again, if things are well-controlled or stabilized on medications, a diocese MAY agree to profess the person at least temporarily. I hope this is helpful. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) Very helpful indeed, Sister. I will have another look at your blog with the reference points you have given me and see if I can find what I read quite some time ago now. If I can't, I will take up your offer of email assistance. Thanks heaps! I could cry - truly! I am putting this Phatmass page on file as it does give so much hope to I am sure far more than I know about. It also gives a theological determination and from a reliable source that does offer dignity and self esteem and a defined place 'in the scheme of things' and totally without patronization nor condescension. So often one may need to read long texts and even read between the lines to glean out what is valuable to oneself. Your writing is very clear and to the point and expressed with simplicity. Thanks heaps again. Nowadays many forms of mental illness are controllable if sufferers will listen to their doctors and take their medication without fail. I have had tremendous problems on the medication front, but perseverance brought success in a medication that worked without 'the nasties' - and if history goes on repeating, I will probably be going through the exercise more than once again. A medication can work great for me and then after some time, problems can start up. Medications today are of great variety and if one is giving one problems re side effects, there are usually most often others that can be tried to same effect without the negative affects. It is important to give one's doctor accurate and honest feedback on all fronts. There is still a long journey for society and for us sufferers, but there are real signs of hope here and there and your post is a truly major one. I hope some members on Catholic Answers are reading and taking notes ( I can always link to your posts). I was surprised to read " diocese MAY agree to profess the person at least temporarily" and to learn that a diocesan hermit could be professed for a term before any sort of perpetual profession is made is new to me (always conditional to diocesan agreement) Thank you very much once more. Edited December 25, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) Just one last quick question, Sister. This sentence has always intrigued me since I first read it. Catholic Catechism 919 http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p4.htm#926 : the approval of new forms of consecrated life is reserved to the Apostolic See.459 What exactly does "forms" mean. Is it something like a secular institute is a new form of consecrated life in that members are publicly consecrated to the evangelical counsels but live in their own homes responsible for their own existence in every way (meeting together periodically) They live the same Rule of Life - and most often do not wear religious habits? Is that a newer FORM of consecrated life. Consecrated life per se is probably today most commonly religious life per se. Edited December 25, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 (edited) As another example, Consecrated Virgins are not publicly consecrated to the evangelical counsels, rather their lifelong commitment to virginity for the sake of The Kingdom has been approved as a new FORM of consecrated life (although it is probably really the most ancient form). Meaning that The Apostolic See can discern that a certain way of life is a way of life that The Lord desires The Church to consecrate to Him. Or have I got it all wrong - and nothing new :) It is probably Christmas Day now in USA - so no hurry whatsoever to respond. And a very Joyful, merry and Holy Christmas to all wherever you are in God's world, His Universe (just in case there REALLY ARE aliens!) :shocking: Edited December 25, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister_Laurel Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Very helpful indeed, Sister. I will have another look at your blog with the reference points you have given me and see if I can find what I read quite some time ago now. If I can't, I will take up your offer of email assistance. Thanks heaps! I could cry - truly! I am putting this Phatmass page on file as it does give so much hope to I am sure far more than I know about. It also gives a theological determination and from a reliable source that does offer dignity and self esteem and a defined place 'in the scheme of things' and totally without patronization nor condescension. So often one may need to read long texts and even read between the lines to glean out what is valuable to oneself. Your writing is very clear and to the point and expressed with simplicity. Thanks heaps again. Nowadays many forms of mental illness are controllable if sufferers will listen to their doctors and take their medication without fail. I have had tremendous problems on the medication front, but perseverance brought success in a medication that worked without 'the nasties' - and if history goes on repeating, I will probably be going through the exercise more than once again. A medication can work great for me and then after some time, problems can start up. Medications today are of great variety and if one is giving one problems re side effects, there are usually most often others that can be tried to same effect without the negative affects. It is important to give one's doctor accurate and honest feedback on all fronts. There is still a long journey for society and for us sufferers, but there are real signs of hope here and there and your post is a truly major one. I hope some members on Catholic Answers are reading and taking notes ( I can always link to your posts). I was surprised to read " diocese MAY agree to profess the person at least temporarily" and to learn that a diocesan hermit could be professed for a term before any sort of perpetual profession is made is new to me (always conditional to diocesan agreement) Thank you very much once more. Temporary profession is typical and prudent. It is rare to have a hermit admitted immediately to perpetual profession. Dioceses may require anywhere from 2-5 years in temporary vows. They can extend that if there is a good reason or a question about admitting to perpetual vows. We don't admit to perpetual profession and consecration without temporary profession in any other vowed vocation; neither should we do that with the rarest and most fragile vocation known. That is especially true given the individualism and narcissism so prevalent today; this can too easily pass for eremitical solitude. best, Sister Laurel Stillsong Hermitage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted December 25, 2012 Share Posted December 25, 2012 Thank you, Sister. I certainly knew that temporary vows applied in religious life, I didn't realize it also applied where Canon 603 is concerned for example. I had thought that a Bishop may require quite some considerable time including actually living in solitude, interviews etc. prior to consecration and this would include discerning what an applicant's motivation might be - but not that there could be temporary profession similar to what applies in religious life - and I think it is quite positive that there can be temporary profession under Canon 603. On my own personal supposition only, I am supposing that there is no temporary profession for Consecrated Virginity - but again, I might be wrong. When you have time and I realize we are in a very busy time of year, could you please explain what "new forms" means http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/125146-the-cloisterite-family/page-9#entry2527213. Initially on a first read, I had thought that it meant new religious communities - but realizing that there can be diocesan approval of new religious communities, I have wondered what "new forms" with approval reserved to Apostolic See may mean - and have only ever had my own supposition in this regard. Forgive me if you had noted my question and not had time to answer as yet. My questions are that I may have my own understandings correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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