Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 We can only drag this on for so long. Let's leave Gemma in peace and stop pestering her. It's not getting anybody anywhere and it's doing more harm than good. I don't think Gemma is still involved (at least not until the holidays are over when she may be able to return) and frankly, until you mentioned her name, the thread had continued without reference to her. Certainly there is no bullying going on. However, I do think the way the subject has developed helps people discern the difference between valid experiments with canon 603 and invalid ones. While canon 603 is VERY flexible it is not meant to be used as a stopgap so that people can avoid the established process of becoming an institute of consecrated life in the church, or for those who cannot become professed and consecrated in some other way. It is not meant for those who simply live pious lives alone, but instead defines a clear life of eremitical solitude --- a very different matter. Clearing up some of the misunderstandings, abuses, and stereotypes is a good thing I think. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 All the best to you in Carmel, nunsense. This thread just reeks of bullying and although the topic has shifted, the bullying is still here to witness if so desired, and I really wish that wasn't the case. Some say bullying has not been done here, but when so many are saying that it feels like bullying is the case, then perhaps it's wise to stop the conversation just because of the appearance of such uncharitable behavior. Yes, I'm new here comparatively, but that shouldn't automatically discredit me. I've more posts than srlaurel here, so if you're willing to accept her as a credible source, my amount of posts on here shouldn't be a factor either. I'm just tired of this thread and its negative connotations towards Gemma and CO, when Gemma has been nothing but helpful in my own discernment. Again, all the best to you in Carmel. :) Perhaps this is not what you meant and you could clarify that, but this is the first time I have ever heard that the number of posts on Phatmass is a way of judging credibility or expertise in a specific area. I am here as a diocesan hermit, systematic theologian, and person familiar with the canons governing those living canonical eremitical life, especially under canon 603. The fact is I am publicly responsible for this vocation as well as for my own personal living it out and I care a lot when people are being mislead about it. My expertise in these things has nothing to do with the number of times I post or don't post on Phatmass (though I would bet folks might question it if I was here posting all the time!). Even so, I thought Nunsense merely referred to your relative newness in relation to a long history here of both asking questions about CO and of the original poster evading those or responding with verifiable untruths; I thought her point was simply that perhaps you were unaware of that history. I didn't think she was questioning your own credibility per se. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland httP://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents. Anyway, I am sad that you think I was sarcastic or something about wishing you well in Carmel. I was not sarcastic or anything but sincere. I do wish you the best and I really wish you didn't think I was insincere just because we have a disagreement about the way this thread has been managed. Carmel is a beautiful place and I've been at several Carmelite monasteries for Mass and prayer with the nuns. I truly hope your calling is in your UK Carmel and that you spend your days in peace and joy, uniting yourself with Jesus as you yearn for. I wonder which, if any, of Gemma's groups actually do exist. Listserv groups are not the issue precisely. Neither, however, do these constitute groups which are capable of becoming public associations of the faithful. When someone speaks of a proposed inastitute of consecrated life which then, because of many problems, decides to "go the eremitical route", when, despite no background or true expertise in any relevant area, they claim to have composed a formation program for people wanting to join this "group", questions needs to be asked and answered. When they claim to have the support of their Bishop and a canonist guiding this vocation "every step of the way" (and related claims) despite evidence to the contrary and later claim to not even KNOW whether or not CO has the support of their Bishop, when they tell people who join such a group that they will be able to be either lay or consecrated hermits (in fact it is VERY difficult to be admitted to consecration), when they ask these people to adopt a common Plan of Life and which therefore circumvents canon 603's requirement that diocesan hermits write their own Rules or Plans of Life, then questions need to be asked and adequately answered. When belonging to such a group and seeking to live as a hermit is a temporary thing UNTIL the cenobitical expression can be established in real life and therefore making use of canon 603 to profess individual "hermits" becomes a matter of fraud, when such "hermits" are dressed up in habits and begin using titles and post-nomial initials despite these requiring permission and being symbols of public rights and obligations, when Gemma claims to be a lay hermit despite being a wife and mother of two boys living at home --- then questions need to be asked and answers need to be forthcoming. From your own post we know that ONE listserv group exists in some sense (though apparently from what you say it is not Gemma's own) and that it has been helpful to you. Unfortunately, that answers none of the other questions, and equally unfortunately, Gemma herself is not the one making this clear. By the way, if you really wish for people to drop their questions of Gemma or her projects, why are you making claims on her behalf? Are you aware your own claims only serve to raise questions of reality, soundness, truthfulness, etc, yet again. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 One of the differences between lauras and communities is the fact of separate Rules with guidelines for elements shared by the whole group and which allow the laura to function or exist. This allows the hermits to move on and continue living their own Rules and horaria should something happen to the laura. Commentators on Canon 603 are clear that even if the Sacred Congregation allows for lauras (and it does although the canon says nothing at all about it) these should not rise to the level of a community. Other differences include the right of the individual hermits to determine how they make a living (doing spiritual direction, for instance), separate bank accounts, responsibility for one's own insurance, control of one's own use of media, control of own visitors so long as these do not intrude upon the silence and solitude of the entire group, choice of own director and confessor, different diocesan delegates if that is what the hermit chooses, etc, no common habit or logos, no superior, no formation program (lauras are composed of already-professed diocesan hermits), and several others. Coming together to pray part of the time is not a problem unless it is a required thing. These distinctions are becoming clearer as people reflect on canon 603 and its appropriate and inappropriate usage. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogsport.com Since you have made this clear, I can see that difference between a laura and a community and it does seem as if the HoB are more of a community. Thank you for making that clear. I loved living with the Hermits of Bethlehem but I did find the hybrid lifestyle neither one nor the other, so perhaps that is why I didn't feel a call there. I loved hermit life but I felt if we were going to live under a rule and requirements of a community then we needed to pray togeether as a community too. Things to think about. Thank you.
Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics? I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day. Let me give you a general sense of my own week days in the hermitage. From 4:00am to 8:00 am I spend the time in quiet prayer (1 hr), Lauds, journaling and related prayer. At 8:30 I am at usually the parish for Mass and then have breakfast. From about 9:30 - 12:00 noon I do lectio (Scripture) and some Scripture study. At 12:00n I tend to pray again (Office or a psalm from Mass) and then have lunch. On days I do not participate in Mass I have a Communion service at the hermitage. This period from 4:00a -1:00p is the heart of my day. The afternoons are variable. Usually I nap or take a walk after lunch. (Depends on what kind of night I had.) I have SD clients in the afternoons on Mondays and Fridays. Otherwise I will write, read theology, spend some time meditating on Friday's Scriptures, and do errands of various sorts. Evenings begin with Vespers, dinner, and then more journaling, or other writing or lectio (usually not Scripture), etc. On Wednesdays I have orchestra (which is actually written into my Rule) so Wednesday afternoons I tend to spend some time practicing. Another period of quiet prayer and Compline complete the day. Friday evenings I have SD clients before this and Friday mornings I may do a Liturgy of the Word with Communion if there is no priest at the parish. Saturdays differ in the afternoons and I may also go to Vigil Mass in the evening. Sundays differ in that I go to 9:30 Mass, have coffee with a Dominican friend when that is possible, and tend to do a different kind of reading or some more journaling in the afternooon. The evening schedule is usually the same as the week days. Every hermit lives a horarium which serves them best. For a long time I was up at 2:00am to pray vigils but in fact 4:00am works better for me and, like some Camaldolese, I treat 4:00am - 8:00 am as a time of vigil. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Since you have made this clear, I can see that difference between a laura and a community and it does seem as if the HoB are more of a community. Thank you for making that clear. I loved living with the Hermits of Bethlehem but I did find the hybrid lifestyle neither one nor the other, so perhaps that is why I didn't feel a call there. I loved hermit life but I felt if we were going to live under a rule and requirements of a community then we needed to pray togeether as a community too. Things to think about. Thank you. Most welcome. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er DIo
beatitude Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents. Setting up a listserv is not the same as founding a religious community. Anyone can do it. I don't think there is any doubt that people may join Gemma's multitude of Yahoo! groups - the doubt is about whether these groups can deliver what they promise. I've read Gemma's page on the Holy Innocents, in which Karen Lhotka describes how she felt a strong call to pro-life ministry as a religious sister and was in tears after being turned away by both the Sisters of Life and the Servants of the Gospel of Life. She approached other communities and was turned away by them also. She wrote to Gemma after seeing Gemma's ideas for the Holy Innocents and was thrilled to be 'accepted' by Cloister Outreach. This immediately raises red flags for me, as what I see from this picture is a woman who wants to become a religious badly enough to try anything. She goes from seeking entry to any pro-life community that will take her to being a 'foundress', with Gemma telling her that she must have arrived at Cloister Outreach in response to Gemma's visions - of red-habited nuns praying outside Tennessee abortion clinics, of St Francis de Sales. The whole thing reads like a clumsy attempt at a medieval hagiography. When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation? I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. Yet people who question her ability to participate in this thread do not question her ability to 'found' multiple religious communities via listserv, and I think this is what Nunsense meant when she worried about people being deceived and getting sucked into projects that have no basis in reality.
Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 Setting up a listserv is not the same as founding a religious community. Anyone can do it. I don't think there is any doubt that people may join Gemma's multitude of Yahoo! groups - the doubt is about whether these groups can deliver what they promise. I've read Gemma's page on the Holy Innocents, in which Karen Lhotka describes how she felt a strong call to pro-life ministry as a religious sister and was in tears after being turned away by both the Sisters of Life and the Servants of the Gospel of Life. She approached other communities and was turned away by them also. She wrote to Gemma after seeing Gemma's ideas for the Holy Innocents and was thrilled to be 'accepted' by Cloister Outreach. This immediately raises red flags for me, as what I see from this picture is a woman who wants to become a religious badly enough to try anything. She goes from seeking entry to any pro-life community that will take her to being a 'foundress', with Gemma telling her that she must have arrived at Cloister Outreach in response to Gemma's visions - of red-habited nuns praying outside Tennessee abortion clinics, of St Francis de Sales. The whole thing reads like a clumsy attempt at a medieval hagiography. When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation? I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. Yet people who question her ability to participate in this thread do not question her ability to 'found' multiple religious communities via listserv, and I think this is what Nunsense meant when she worried about people being deceived and getting sucked into projects that have no basis in reality. So the "foundress" of the Holy Innocents listserv is really Gemma who then put another person in charge of it? In that way for instance she distinguishes between CONF and CO but, given other factors (especially past untruths and evasions), it sounds like a shell game to me or a situation analogous to corporations that sets up shell companies. It would be important to hear how Gemma is truly involved in this, and also what expertise and responsibilities the new foundress actually has. Thus, I also wonder if the new "foundresses'" disappointment and desperation is not being exploited in this situation. Sometimes religious communities will not accept someone right off. They need this person to get extra assistance and do some personal work first --- sometimes extra SD and often some therapy as well. It is hard to be put off this way, but genuine vocations will accept the needed wait, do the work, get the assistance, and then try again. The people I have worked with in such situations are often amazing persons and the work they do is outstanding. But it is also completely necessary to respond to God's own call. If this person was not suitable at all for some reason then does it really make sense for Gemma, a woman with NO experience of religious life, to immediately make her a "foundress" of a similar "group" (one supposedly on the way to becoming an institute of consecrated life itself, for instance) and put her in charge of seeking support from her Bishop? (I can think of one situation where this MIGHT be a good idea --- if she was rejected because of physical illness for instance --- but in the main it seems reckless and without real care for either Karen or those who will join the list.) SImilar questions must be asked about anyone Gemma signs up as a "co-founder" for any of CO's proposed "charisms," --- at least by anyone wanting to give their lives to this project. As folks may have noted, the list of required information from Bishops for such projects sending in regular reports includes extensive information of everyone involved and joining the project. Education (transcripts of all colleges and universities, etc), health, psychological well being, history in religious life, marriage, divorce and annullments, etc and more are required for the Bishop to evaluate such groups and those that lead them. Again questions are legitimate and important for ANY project that claims to be a new foundation or charism --- especially if they accept people in a way which diverts them from other paths. They must be raised and answered honestly and competently. And again CO raises those questions and many others. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) When I searched for this community, I also found a Phatmass thread (four years old) in which Gemma wrote that Karen had met with the bishop and the bishop had said he was going to support the project. Do you know if this is true? If the diocese were to be contacted about the Holy Innocents community, would the bishop confirm his support? What has his input been so far? What arrangements have been made for candidates to receive solid religious formation? No, I do not know if this is true about meeting with the bishop. I will be happy to share with you the information that I have from emailing with Gemma about the work with the bishop. It would have been the bishop of Knoxville if she had met with him. From what I understand, right now Karen and Gemma are trying to build a solid community of committed discerners before they take any further steps. Here is the information I have received: "The Sisters of the Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla are in an umbrella association known as the Cloister Outreach Affiliate New Foundations, better known as CONF. We have numerous proposed charisms, several of which are in the process of emergence, the Holy Innocents being one of them. This charism was passed by the first bishop of Knoxville, who said he had no problems with it. That being said, part of discernment is finding the Rule which speaks to you. The Holy Ghost works on attraction. The Holy Innocents sisters will be following the Rule of St. Augustine, and will be Third Order Regular Dominicans. Will they ever be aggregated to the Dominican Order? They may be eventually, but that will take 25 years or more. New charisms begin as lay associations, and those comprising the Holy Innocents sisters will form a lay-association-within-a-lay-association. Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path. While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL. She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV). DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment. Part of the Holy Innocents charism is to practice non-violence toward the pro-choice faction. DGAL implements this by signing Dr. Martin Luther King's promise of non-violence. Everyone on the list has signed it. We are small, but that is good because the souls we have on the group are serious about what they're doing. I would rather have a small list of serious persons than a list of thousands and I be the only one doing anything. We'll take things slowly. Not everyone is called to be an adherent to an emerging charism. Such does require a special grace. Our CONF communities are proposed for those within the Latin Mass community, and for older women. On my main site, I do have a list of EFLR communities. To my knowledge, the Holy Innocents may be the only pro-life one with the EFLR emphasis." I am not saying this to bully anybody. These are simple questions that anybody discerning with a new foundation should be able to answer, for their own sake - and if they can't answer, that's a huge warning sign right there. It's troubling to me that when people ask the tough questions, Gemma's disabilities are immediately brought up to shield her, as though she is far too vulnerable and fragile to cope with such questions. I have been told the following: Karen is the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla Preparatory Association and she lives in the Knoxville, TN area which the order will be located. She's in her early forties. When there are enough other people who want to start the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla with Karen, then they will live together in a beguinage (non vowed women living the religious life) for 5 years and from there they can ask the bishop to establish a Public Lay Association so that they can become a Private Association of the Christian Faithful with the Intention of becoming a Religious Institute. This is the point at which they become Sisters and wear the habit. With time and growth become an Public Religious Institute. Karen is in the process of getting an apartment across from one of the Knoxville abortuaries for the beguinage and get it ready for when more discerning women come. It is on the listserv as Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life that discerning women get to know one another, share ideas about what they would do as an order, grow spiritually, and do Pro-Life work where they live while the others come. Now, as for me, I'm still very much discerning my vocation. I am feeling less called to the Holy Innocents and more called to a different community--but of course, I don't know how long it will take until our Lord reveals His specific will to me in regards to which community I should join. I'm happy to be a part of DGAL for now, simply because it is a helpful means of accessing pro-life prayer material, but I don't want to give the impression of making a deeper level of commitment with DGAL than I am actually making. :) Apologies for the lengthy post. God bless you and a very merry fourth Sunday of Advent! Edited December 23, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart
Sister_Laurel Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 No, I do not know if this is true about meeting with the bishop. I will be happy to share with you the information that I have from emailing with Gemma about the work with the bishop. It would have been the bishop of Knoxville if she had met with him. From what I understand, right now Karen and Gemma are trying to build a solid community of committed discerners before they take any further steps. Here is the information I have received: "The Sisters of the Holy Innocents & St. Gianna Molla are in an umbrella association known as the Cloister Outreach Affiliate New Foundations, better known as CONF. We have numerous proposed charisms, several of which are in the process of emergence, the Holy Innocents being one of them. This charism was passed by the first bishop of Knoxville, who said he had no problems with it. That being said, part of discernment is finding the Rule which speaks to you. The Holy Ghost works on attraction. The Holy Innocents sisters will be following the Rule of St. Augustine, and will be Third Order Regular Dominicans. Will they ever be aggregated to the Dominican Order? They may be eventually, but that will take 25 years or more. New charisms begin as lay associations, and those comprising the Holy Innocents sisters will form a lay-association-within-a-lay-association. Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path. While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL. She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV). DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment. Part of the Holy Innocents charism is to practice non-violence toward the pro-choice faction. DGAL implements this by signing Dr. Martin Luther King's promise of non-violence. Everyone on the list has signed it. We are small, but that is good because the souls we have on the group are serious about what they're doing. I would rather have a small list of serious persons than a list of thousands and I be the only one doing anything. We'll take things slowly. Not everyone is called to be an adherent to an emerging charism. Such does require a special grace. Our CONF communities are proposed for those within the Latin Mass community, and for older women. On my main site, I do have a list of EFLR communities. To my knowledge, the Holy Innocents may be the only pro-life one with the EFLR emphasis." I have been told the following: Karen is the foundress of the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla Preparatory Association and she lives in the Knoxville, TN area which the order will be located. She's in her early forties. When there are enough other people who want to start the Sisters of the Holy Innocents and St. Gianna Molla with Karen, then they will live together in a beguinage (non vowed women living the religious life) for 5 years and from there they can ask the bishop to establish a Public Lay Association so that they can become a Private Association of the Christian Faithful with the Intention of becoming a Religious Institute. This is the point at which they become Sisters and wear the habit. With time and growth become an Public Religious Institute. Karen is in the process of getting an apartment across from one of the Knoxville abortuaries for the beguinage and get it ready for when more discerning women come. It is on the listserv as Dr. Gianna's Assistants for Life that discerning women get to know one another, share ideas about what they would do as an order, grow spiritually, and do Pro-Life work where they live while the others come. Now, as for me, I'm still very much discerning my vocation. I am feeling less called to the Holy Innocents and more called to a different community--but of course, I don't know how long it will take until our Lord reveals His specific will to me in regards to which community I should join. I'm happy to be a part of DGAL for now, simply because it is a helpful means of accessing pro-life prayer material, but I don't want to give the impression of making a deeper level of commitment with DGAL than I am actually making. :) Apologies for the lengthy post. God bless you and a very merry fourth Sunday of Advent! I want to call attention to one sentence in particular in the above, namely, [[Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit, then accepting adherents, but this does not seem to be attracting her, so she is not taking this path. While she makes plans for the future community, she lives the charism as DGAL. She is also a Missionary of the Gospel of Life (MEV). DGAL is an outgrowth of her MEV commitment.]] Gemma has clearly written this and I wonder where she gets the notion that Karen has the option of becoming a diocesan hermit and then seeking adherents for her future community --- apparently a community dedicated to anti-abortion activity. I am troubled by much of what comes straight from Gemma's website (and that includes much in the above selection) but in this specific case it seems clear that in Gemma's mind canon 603 profession IS nothing more than a stopgap way to get someone consecrated before accepting other members of a proposed community. A vocation to Canon 603 is not about feeling attracted to a bit of physical solitude or having the appropriate temperament for such a thing SO THAT one may really do something else (cenobitical apostolic life). It has to do with feeling sincerely called to the silence of solitude as the way to one's own human wholeness and holiness and thus, to the salvation of the world. This use of canon 603 as a means to something else is precisely what I have been speaking about as an abuse of canon 603 and precisely what Gemma denied doing. I think it is good that Karen did not choose this route but that does not change the way Gemma thinks about the matter or writes about it on her website. Meanwhile, what makes a person a foundress? Are they a foundress if they do another person's bidding and live out that same person's project and envisioned values or is there something more involved than this? I believe the latter is the case. Further, if CONF is truly distinct from CO as opposed to simply being an extension of it, and if these individual projects are "affiliates" then shouldn't it be composed of completely independent projects and founders which or who have NOTHING whatever to do with Gemma's imagined "charisms" and then come together (affiliate with CO) as CONF? And finally, we should be clear that if a Bishop doesn't stop a person from proceeding with forming a private association this does NOT indicate approval of any sort. The person has a right to form such an association and does not need approval. I am clear that Gemma says the Bishop passed on the charism, not on anything else. Once again, posting things from Gemma's own website raises lots of questions. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
StClare_OraProNobis Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Sr. Laurel- I really and truly do not mean this to be snarky....I am just trying to understand something. As a Christian I have to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet in order to be faithful to my vocation- and I am not called to be a HERMIT. Do you have such limits in place? Does not spending so much time here interfere with your solitary prayer? Would this not be a distraction from your vocation? Maybe I am misunderstanding what a hermit is, but I always thought it really meant a lot of separation from the "world" and from a lot of interaction with other people. It would seem to me that if a person has very limited leeway to spend interacting with others that maybe it should be directed towards something charitable- like volunteering at a soup kitchen. You might say that volunteering at a soup kitchen would break your solitude, which leads me back to the point of how does being on the internet interacting with people not?
Nunsense Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) Sr. Laurel- I really and truly do not mean this to be snarky....I am just trying to understand something. As a Christian I have to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet in order to be faithful to my vocation- and I am not called to be a HERMIT. Do you have such limits in place? Does not spending so much time here interfere with your solitary prayer? Would this not be a distraction from your vocation? Maybe I am misunderstanding what a hermit is, but I always thought it really meant a lot of separation from the "world" and from a lot of interaction with other people. It would seem to me that if a person has very limited leeway to spend interacting with others that maybe it should be directed towards something charitable- like volunteering at a soup kitchen. You might say that volunteering at a soup kitchen would break your solitude, which leads me back to the point of how does being on the internet interacting with people not? Even if you don't mean it to sound that way - it does seem a bit presumptious to be 'calling Sr Laurel to account' as it were about how she spends her time, especially since she already provided a breakdown of her day in an earlier post and in addition to all of the other things she does, she probably also allows herself a certain amount of private time where she can choose what activity to do. She probably doesn't 'serve in a soup kitchen' as that would be outside her calling as a hermit, but it is a charity to post information and to correct errors about religious life and the consecrated state, especially when there are serious issues involved. I'm sure like any consecrated person, SrLaurel is perfectly able to judge the amount of time she can spend online, writing letters, writing in her journal, doing spiritual reading, providing spiritual direction and praying in various ways. She isn't a postulant in a community who is being just taught about religious life, she is a consecrated diocesan hermit. And there is a difference between posting indescriminately on the Lame Board and other forums just to increase posts and writing on VS where she provides information that comes from her experience as a consecrated diocesan hermit and which corrects errors and misunderstandings. It seem a very valid use of her time, like praying and spiritual direction. I know that SrLaurel is perfectly capable of defending herself, should she feel the need to do so, but really, do you quiz other religious about how they spend their time? Just seems a bit instrusive to me and might alienate other religious from posting here, which would be a real shame. Edited to add: Since you defended Gemma in a previous post, your motivation does seem a bit suspect when asking this question. I apologise if I am wrong, but perhaps you are just trying to silence SrL's voice of reason here? Edited December 24, 2012 by nunsense
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) Hello everyone! I hope all of your last Sundays of Advent have been beautiful and filled with joy! :) I don't know if everyone else here is as tired as I am of dragging this thread forward, but I just wanted to make a confession and ask for forgiveness from anyone that I may have offended by any of my posts here. I never intended any harm and was only trying to assist Gemma since she is offline and can't reply for herself. So anyway, the confession is simple. My parents have decided to return to the Church after 10+ years of being fallen away, and yesterday evening I went to a restaurant with my father to celebrate and spend time with him. My kind father bought me a topshelf margarita and one for himself too. It was a lovely drink (singular), and we had a delightful time talking with one another at the restaurant. Unfortunately for me, as a newly-turned 21-year old, even just one margarita has its effects. So when I got home and logged onto phatmass, I let my emotions get the better of me and posted the "Please.End.This.Thread" request. That was a bad judgement call on my part, and I feel like I've caused this thread to spiral down into what it is today. I didn't consider the repercussions of such a post. Please forgive the indiscretion! I pray we can all continue our happy lives in Vocation Station with respectful discussions and advice for our journeys to the vocations that Jesus asks of us. We all have disagreements here about how this has been handled and how everyone has been treated. But there shouldn't be this negative vibe. dUst made a wonderful rule for us about not promoting unapproved communities, and I think that will be of great help in the future. God bless you all and I hope your Monday last-minute Christmas shopping goes smoothly! :) -TJMH Edited December 24, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart
Nunsense Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Hello everyone! I hope all of your last Sundays of Advent have been beautiful and filled with joy! :) I don't know if everyone else here is as tired as I am of dragging this thread forward, but I just wanted to make a confession and ask for forgiveness from anyone that I may have offended by any of my posts here. I never intended any harm and was only trying to assist Gemma since she is offline and can't reply for herself. So anyway, the confession is simple. My parents have decided to return to the Church after 10+ years of being fallen away, and yesterday evening I went to a restaurant with my father to celebrate and spend time with him. My kind father bought me a topshelf margarita and one for himself too. It was a lovely drink (singular), and we had a delightful time talking with one another at the restaurant. Unfortunately for me, as a newly-turned 21-year old, even just one margarita has its effects. So when I got home and logged onto phatmass, I let my emotions get the better of me and posted the "Please.End.This.Thread" request. That was a bad judgement call on my part, and I feel like I've caused this thread to spiral down into what it is today. I didn't consider the repercussions of such a post. Please forgive the indiscretion! I pray we can all continue our happy lives in Vocation Station with respectful discussions and advice for our journeys to the vocations that Jesus asks of us. We all have disagreements here about how this has been handled and how everyone has been treated. But there shouldn't be this negative vibe. dUst made a wonderful rule for us about not promoting unapproved communities, and I think that will be of great help in the future. God bless you all and I hope your Monday last-minute Christmas shopping goes smoothly! :) -TJMH It's never a good idea to post after drinking. Or drive or do much of anything really. :) I for one am not tired at all of learning things about different states of consecrated life. SrLaurel helped me understand something about the Hermits of Bethelehem which I didn't know before and which explains a lot to me about why I didn't feel an attraction to the life. She has also made it clear just what the vocation of consecrated hermit life is all about, and explained canon 603 in ways which I hadn't thought about before. I also don't think it spiraled anywhere - so don't whip yourself over anything. You felt a need to defend a friend, and that is great - very loyal. But on the other hand, SrLaurel's posts are helping us to see that friendship alone doesn't guarantee legitimacy of an enterprise. Personally, I love Father Romano and am very loyal to him, but I can also see that what he has established is not really a 'laura' of hermits under canon 603 (even though they are consecrated under this canon to their Bishop) because they share a common Rule, common prayer times, regulations and obedience to a common superior. That doesn't mean I feel any less love for Father Romano or the hermits, it just means that I can see now what I couldn't see before - things have been clarified for me about the particular vocation. This was helpful to me because I felt there was something wrong with me that I couldn't adapt to the life at Bethlehem, even though it appeared to be what I had been seeking, hermit life. But in many ways, it wasn't the life of a consecrated hermit - it was more of a community, and yet it lacked the things about community that I liked best, the praying of the Divine Office in common. What I am trying to say in my lengthy way is that we can love someone and support them and yet still see that things might not be the reality that they appear to be. From what I am understanding now, perhaps even Father Romano didn't truly understand what being a consecrated hermit under canon 603 meant so it's no wonder that Gemma doesn't. He told me that he had been a parish priest who retreated to the property to be a hermit himself, but then others asked him if they could join him and he found himself setting up a 'laura' of hermits, when maybe what he should have done (canonically) was to set up a religious community instead. The Carmelite hermit sisters who live next door to him are hermits, but they also admit that they are a religious community. I don't know if they have gone the canon 603 route or the religious institute one, but the Hermits of Bethlehem seem very similar to them - if not in spirituality, then in structure. So don't beat yourself up about having a drink - just be careful about posting when you do! I am definitely going to drink a vodka or two on Christmas night but will try to stay away from phatmass after I do! :)
Sister_Laurel Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 (edited) Sr. Laurel- I really and truly do not mean this to be snarky....I am just trying to understand something. As a Christian I have to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet in order to be faithful to my vocation- and I am not called to be a HERMIT. Do you have such limits in place? Does not spending so much time here interfere with your solitary prayer? Would this not be a distraction from your vocation? Maybe I am misunderstanding what a hermit is, but I always thought it really meant a lot of separation from the "world" and from a lot of interaction with other people. It would seem to me that if a person has very limited leeway to spend interacting with others that maybe it should be directed towards something charitable- like volunteering at a soup kitchen. You might say that volunteering at a soup kitchen would break your solitude, which leads me back to the point of how does being on the internet interacting with people not? Yes, I have limits and I am keeping those. So no, please be assured I am not spending too much time here nor is it a distraction from my vocation. You see I do have a public responsibility to live this vocation, but also to be sure it is not misunderstood nor abused. Since I do get emails from people who have heard that they can use canon 603 to become a hermit on the way to doing something else, and since some dioceses have actually decided to profess no one under canon 603 because they consider it a fallback vocation or because of abuses such as those promulgated on Gemma's site, taking time in this particular effort becomes more important. Some of the questions I have received are from people supposedly associated with Gemma's project and one in particular was from someone who had spent several years "preparing" to approach her Bishop for profession when in fact she did not feel called to this vocation but to cenobitical life. She had questions about the "seven pillars" Gemma often refers to and also about which Bishop she should contact, her own or Gemma's. In other words she had wasted several years. I consider preventing such situations acts of charity. For that matter, preventing anyone from buying into a fraudulent and misguided internet project which is supposedly connected with canon 603 in some way could be considered an act of charity. Sometimes the food people need is that of truth or information and the soup kitchen they visit is located online. As far as separation from the world goes, "the world" in the sense canon 603 requires is not simply anything outside the hermitage, nor is it ever simply cutting oneself off from interaction with people. Remember that a large part of the desert tradition is hospitality and that may mean having others come into the hermitage or something else entirely. Certainly the Desert Fathers and Mothers spent time answering people's questions. "The world" in the sense of canon 603 means "That which is unredeemed or resistant to Christ" and it can be as much a matter of one's own heart as an outer reality. (cf, Handbook on Canons 573-746, "Norms Common to All Institutes of Consecrated Life, Canons 573-606" page 33, Ellen O'Hara, CSJ) However, with that in mind, the contact I have is something I work out with my director, my delegate, and my Bishop (who, by the way. knows I have a blog, spend time answering questions about canon 603 life, am in contact with other diocesan hermits around the world via email and website, etc). Of course, posting here also means there are other things I am not doing instead, but, if you have looked at my horarium you will see how this CAN fit into a day devoted mainly to prayer, so I would encourage you not to worry. My time is well spent and in a quantitative sense I am actually not spending much time posting here. For instance, this post has taken about 10 minutes so far, perhaps less. Solitude is often misunderstood in the same way "the world" is. It too is as much an inner reality as it is an outer one, though both aspects are necessary. Solitude has more to do with Communion with God than it does with simply being alone. It has more to do with maintaining personal integrity in the midst of criticism and peer pressure than it does with isolation. In any case, you might be surprised how much prayer is involved in posting to this thread, and how much ongoing discernment and even a bit of necessary personal work is involved as well. It is very much a solitary activity. So again, please do not be concerned. Just as I trust you maintain those necessary limits you referred to needing to maintain, I expect folks to trust that I do the same with my own. That is especially true since I rarely post here and do not do so indiscriminately or as recreation. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Edited December 24, 2012 by SRLAUREL
Sister_Laurel Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 It's never a good idea to post after drinking. Or drive or do much of anything really. :) I for one am not tired at all of learning things about different states of consecrated life. SrLaurel helped me understand something about the Hermits of Bethelehem which I didn't know before and which explains a lot to me about why I didn't feel an attraction to the life. She has also made it clear just what the vocation of consecrated hermit life is all about, and explained canon 603 in ways which I hadn't thought about before. I also don't think it spiraled anywhere - so don't whip yourself over anything. You felt a need to defend a friend, and that is great - very loyal. But on the other hand, SrLaurel's posts are helping us to see that friendship alone doesn't guarantee legitimacy of an enterprise. Personally, I love Father Romano and am very loyal to him, but I can also see that what he has established is not really a 'laura' of hermits under canon 603 (even though they are consecrated under this canon to their Bishop) because they share a common Rule, common prayer times, regulations and obedience to a common superior. That doesn't mean I feel any less love for Father Romano or the hermits, it just means that I can see now what I couldn't see before - things have been clarified for me about the particular vocation. This was helpful to me because I felt there was something wrong with me that I couldn't adapt to the life at Bethlehem, even though it appeared to be what I had been seeking, hermit life. But in many ways, it wasn't the life of a consecrated hermit - it was more of a community, and yet it lacked the things about community that I liked best, the praying of the Divine Office in common. What I am trying to say in my lengthy way is that we can love someone and support them and yet still see that things might not be the reality that they appear to be. From what I am understanding now, perhaps even Father Romano didn't truly understand what being a consecrated hermit under canon 603 meant so it's no wonder that Gemma doesn't. He told me that he had been a parish priest who retreated to the property to be a hermit himself, but then others asked him if they could join him and he found himself setting up a 'laura' of hermits, when maybe what he should have done (canonically) was to set up a religious community instead. The Carmelite hermit sisters who live next door to him are hermits, but they also admit that they are a religious community. I don't know if they have gone the canon 603 route or the religious institute one, but the Hermits of Bethlehem seem very similar to them - if not in spirituality, then in structure. So don't beat yourself up about having a drink - just be careful about posting when you do! I am definitely going to drink a vodka or two on Christmas night but will try to stay away from phatmass after I do! :) A note about terminology. People may have noticed I have referred a number of times to solitary eremitical life in speaking of canon 603. There is nothing redundant in that phrase (though when I first added it to my perpetual vow formula at the request of the diocese I thought it was!). Canon 603 fosters SOLITARY eremitical life. Religious hermits (those who belong to communities like the Hermits of Bethlehem or the Camaldolese or even the Carthusians) are no less (or more) hermits than diocesan hermits professed under canon 603 as solitary hermits, but their lives are also different. These folks are also called semi-eremites sometimes. Thus is not because they are only "half hermits" but because the context for their eremitical lives is community and they fall at one end of the eremitical life spectrum. At the other end of the eremitical spectrum are recluses who are much less in contact with members of their community or those outside the hermitage. Some have NO contact except with the superior that visits regularly or the priest who comes to say Mass (if the hermit is not also a priest). Solitude, and even eremitical solitude comes in many shapes and flavors but all of the people mentioned above are hermits. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
Nunsense Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 A note about terminology. People may have noticed I have referred a number of times to solitary eremitical life in speaking of canon 603. There is nothing redundant in that phrase (though when I first added it to my perpetual vow formula at the request of the diocese I thought it was!). Canon 603 fosters SOLITARY eremitical life. Religious hermits (those who belong to communities like the Hermits of Bethlehem or the Camaldolese or even the Carthusians) are no less (or more) hermits than diocesan hermits professed under canon 603 as solitary hermits, but their lives are also different. These folks are also called semi-eremites sometimes. Thus is not because they are only "half hermits" but because the context for their eremitical lives is community and they fall at one end of the eremitical life spectrum. At the other end of the eremitical spectrum are recluses who are much less in contact with members of their community or those outside the hermitage. Some have NO contact except with the superior that visits regularly or the priest who comes to say Mass (if the hermit is not also a priest). Solitude, and even eremitical solitude comes in many shapes and flavors but all of the people mentioned above are hermits. Sincerely, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Thank you yet again - the Church is rich in the forms of consecrated life that she offers. I have learned a lot just from reading this thread.
Sister_Laurel Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Thank you yet again - the Church is rich in the forms of consecrated life that she offers. I have learned a lot just from reading this thread. I'm glad. There is no reason to say members of Romano's group are not hermits (they definitely are!!), but we need to know the term can cover a number of things without being infinitely flexible. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com
Lil'Nun Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Sorry, but I also have to say I find the overall tone of this thread unpleasant now. I do believe it has served its purpose. I do think that it was very necessary to flag up the problems with CO. I also believe it will be necessary to do that again in future (hopefully in a more succinct manner). However, this - to me - is now overkill and I, do think it looks like bullying - or people getting their own back. I really wish the thread would be locked, as the previous one on the same subject was. I think the point has been made. But, for whatever reason the moderator seems happy with it but I just wanted to say I find the grinding on and on of this stuff about CO very saddening and not in the real spirit of Charity. I am not going to post in this thread again, nor read it. I find the hermit information enlightening but this thread is not something I want to revisit.
Nunsense Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 I'm glad. There is no reason to say members of Romano's group are not hermits (they definitely are!!), but we need to know the term can cover a number of things without being infinitely flexible. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.com Yes, I understand what you are saying. The Carmelites still refer to themselves as 'hermits in community' too. They are not claiming to be 'hermits' as in diocesan hermits, but as in living a life that is silent and solitary in spirit. We usually work alone but we do pray the Office together and have Recreation together. Father Romano's group are even more hermit like in that they live apart and pray apart but I can now see much of the community life in what they do. I do appreciate the information you have provided here. I think this thread has been very useful for a lot of us, especially for those interested in the consecrated hermit life under canon 603.
To Jesus Through Mary Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 So anyway, the confession is simple. My parents have decided to return to the Church after 10+ years of being fallen away, and yesterday evening I went to a restaurant with my father to celebrate and spend time with him. My kind father bought me a topshelf margarita and one for himself too. It was a lovely drink (singular), and we had a delightful time talking with one another at the restaurant. Unfortunately for me, as a newly-turned 21-year old, even just one margarita has its effects. So when I got home and logged onto phatmass, I let my emotions get the better of me and posted the "Please.End.This.Thread" request. That was a bad judgement call on my part, and I feel like I've caused this thread to spiral down into what it is today. I didn't consider the repercussions of such a post. :lol: Been there, done that. No worries. I could point out some of my posts that... but I won't ;) But I would head Nunsense advice, beware of posting at those times. Even though it seems like the wittiest and smartest thing ever. Trust me (from experience), it never is. ;)
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