Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 We can only drag this on for so long. Let's leave Gemma in peace and stop pestering her. It's not getting anybody anywhere and it's doing more harm than good. I don't know what thread you are reading, but I see some discussions about hermits and different forms of hermit lifestyle as well as the original thread that Gemma started. She promoted her version of canon 603 hermit life, and we have discussed that. She also said that she would return after the new year to address some of SrLaurel's questions which have not been answered. But even if she doesn't, threads often diverge from the OP to discuss similar areas of the same topic, such as hermits in general and hermits in particular. This thread has the benefit of hearing from someone who is already a consecrated hermit and who knows the canon laws applicable to this state. She has provided us with relevant information and we have gone on to discuss alternative forms of consecrated life that have diocesan approval, especially with regard to canon 603 and how that is interpreted. I think that in the past (I notice you are very new to phatmass), some things have been swept under the carpet or ignored in the hope that they would go away. For quite some time, Cloister Outreach was not discussed here because the same types of questions were raised and evaded and people said to let it drop. But it continues to surface again and again and new people who join phatmass have as much right as us oldies to know about the history and the unanswered questions so as long as Gemma continues to promote her communities and hermit lifestyles then there will those who continue to ask the tough questions and ask her to be accountable for what she posts. You are bumping this thread with a specific mention of Gemma. Most of the last posts have not referred to her at all. I really don't understand what you are hoping to achieve here unless it is simply to bury the facts about CO. I hope that doesn't happen because it is important that new communities be held accountable to the Church authorities and not just do their own thing. As for what AL says - starting another thread about the hermit topic - no problem at all. But the way this discussion went was a natural progression from something specific (Cloister Outreach) to something more general - hermits, and then to another specific - Hermits of Bethlehem. There is a lot of defensiveness about this thread when Gemma was the one who started it, prompting enquiries about what she was promoting. I would think that she (and her supporters) would be glad of an opportunity to resolve all questions and lay all doubts to rest but that wasn't what we were discussing when you bumped it again.
Winchester Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2fbpCUmrTE[/media]
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) All the best to you in Carmel, nunsense. This thread just reeks of bullying and although the topic has shifted, the bullying is still here to witness if so desired, and I really wish that wasn't the case. Some say bullying has not been done here, but when so many are saying that it feels like bullying is the case, then perhaps it's wise to stop the conversation just because of the appearance of such uncharitable behavior. Yes, I'm new here comparatively, but that shouldn't automatically discredit me. I've more posts than srlaurel here, so if you're willing to accept her as a credible source, my amount of posts on here shouldn't be a factor either. I'm just tired of this thread and its negative connotations towards Gemma and CO, when Gemma has been nothing but helpful in my own discernment. Again, all the best to you in Carmel. :) Edited December 23, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2fbpCUmrTE[/media] thank you Winchester!! :) I used to like Herman and the Hermits - but they are pretty bubble-gum aren't they? lol
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) All the best to you in Carmel, nunsense. This thread just reeks of bullying and although the topic has shifted, the bullying is still here to witness if so desired, and I really wish that wasn't the case. Some say bullying has not been done here, but when so many are saying that it feels like bullying is the case, then perhaps it's wise to stop the conversation just because of the appearance of such uncharitable behavior. Yes, I'm new here comparatively, but that shouldn't automatically discredit me. I've more posts than srlaurel here, so if you're willing to accept her as a credible source, my amount of posts on here shouldn't be a factor either. I'm just tired of this thread and its negative connotations towards Gemma and CO, when Gemma has been nothing but helpful in my own discernment. Again, all the best to you in Carmel. :) Well, all I can say is that I am sorry that 1) you are seeing it all as bullying instead of an attempt to clarify misconceptions and misinformation and 2) you feel you have to say one thing while meaning another - but I will do you the courtesy (which you fail to show me) of accepting your words at face value when you wish me well in Carmel (although it doesn't sound that way) and 3) you can't see the valuable contribution being made by someone who not only talks about the consecrated hermit life, but who is also living it every day. She deserves the respect we show clergy and religious who live consecrated lives recognised by the Church. If I do take SrLaurel's words a little more seriously than yours, it is only because she knows what she is talking about from actually living the life whereas you may have read a lot or heard a lot but don't have the experience yet. It is not so much on how many posts have been made but on how much time has been spent here on phatmass reading the same things over and over again about some topics, and about listening to the voice of experience, not emotions. Winchester has it right - we all need to lighten up a little. If I am to take you at your word that you really do wish me all the best then maybe you could pay me the same courtesy of trying to accept my words at face value when I say I am not trying to bully anyone, but I do have serious concerns about some people being misled about some claims for CO and see nothing wrong in someone trying to clarify really muddy waters. I think there has been only one post that could be taken as a personal attack and that was made in another thread, that a moderator rightly closed. This thread has been very civilised. PS - edited to add: I am so glad that Gemma has been helpful to you. As I have posted several times, her information about other communities is very good and a useful resource for those discerning. This is a very laudable effort. My only concerns are with her own communities that do not really exist. I am sure many people are gratful to her for her help in discerning vocations to other communities and I think this is a praiseworthy thing she does there. Edited December 23, 2012 by nunsense
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents. Anyway, I am sad that you think I was sarcastic or something about wishing you well in Carmel. I was not sarcastic or anything but sincere. I do wish you the best and I really wish you didn't think I was insincere just because we have a disagreement about the way this thread has been managed. Carmel is a beautiful place and I've been at several Carmelite monasteries for Mass and prayer with the nuns. I truly hope your calling is in your UK Carmel and that you spend your days in peace and joy, uniting yourself with Jesus as you yearn for.
Winchester Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I think y'all should twist your habits and just snap each other until a clear victor emerges.
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I think y'all should twist your habits and just snap each other until a clear victor emerges. Have I told you lately that I love you? :love:
Winchester Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 Have I told you lately that I love you? :love: No, but feel free.
Lil Red Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I find some of these posts unduly mean and confrontative in a very uncharitable spirit. I really believe that if someone has a question of a negative/accusatory nature, if should be handled privately. If public information has been given out that is wrong, the poster should be corrected and the post(s) deleted. This whole stream of posts is very disheartening and I am disappointed to read them here when I come here for links, information and good news. This has really degraded into something ugly. Gemma has been very open about her disabilities in the past and some of the questions/posts border on bullying. After what our country has just witnessed, I'm shocked there isn't more sensitivity to mental challenges. I hope this thread gets deleted. I don't care if a hermit nun is the one bullying or not. nope.
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) The thing is, her communities DO really exist, as I am a part of one of them--the Holy Innocents listserv group. The foundress (not Gemma) is working on the formation of the charism/spirituality/etc of the Holy Innocents. Anyway, I am sad that you think I was sarcastic or something about wishing you well in Carmel. I was not sarcastic or anything but sincere. I do wish you the best and I really wish you didn't think I was insincere just because we have a disagreement about the way this thread has been managed. Carmel is a beautiful place and I've been at several Carmelite monasteries for Mass and prayer with the nuns. I truly hope your calling is in your UK Carmel and that you spend your days in peace and joy, uniting yourself with Jesus as you yearn for. You are misunderstanding the difference between CONF and CO. They are not the same and there is no debate over the activities of CONF which supports other new communities, that might very well be real and valid. But I am not going to debate this whole thing with you again because SrLaurel covered it quite well several times in previous posts. You can read them again slowly if you really want to understand what is at question here. As for your wishes about Carmel, I told you, I will take you at face value, no matter what your intentions. We have not always agreed in the past and you sometimes come across as passive-aggressive towards me, but my point was that if you want me to think the best of you, it would help if you did the same towards me when I post things. Yes, Carmel is a beautiful place indeed. I have lived in 4 of them (count em 4) and this is my last chance - a gift from God of being allowed to return to the first monastery I ever entered. Today I received an e-card from Reverend Mother (a jacquie lawson Christmas card) that shows a procession of choir boys walking into a church singing a Christmas carol. The church door shuts behind them as the last one enters. Then a few seconds later, another little choir boy comes running to the church door but drops his song book on the ground and turns around to look at it, and then at the closed door again. Then he just stands where he is outside the door and joins in the Christmas carol with all the others, and his voice is pure and lovely. If the card wasn't sweet enough, Mother wrote that she hopes next year I will be inside with the choir instead of outside. It brought tears to my eyes to know that they want me there as much as I want to be there with them. Phatmass will be behind me and there will be no more endless debates about whether or not I am trying to bully someone by simply expressing my concerns about things that might adversely affect someone who is sincerely discerning religious life or life as a consecrated hermit. Believe me, there are real concerns involved here - take me at my word as I will try to do you - ok? No offence intended, honestly. PS - phatmass may be behind me (no reading phorums) but I will miss all the dear friends I have made here .... like Winchester :) Edited December 23, 2012 by nunsense
Lil Red Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 All the best to you in Carmel, nunsense. This thread just reeks of bullying and although the topic has shifted, the bullying is still here to witness if so desired, and I really wish that wasn't the case. Some say bullying has not been done here, but when so many are saying that it feels like bullying is the case, then perhaps it's wise to stop the conversation just because of the appearance of such uncharitable behavior. nope.
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 Honestly, I wasn't really referring to you when I said it seems like bullying is going on. The bottom line is this: Gemma is not trying to hurt anybody or lead anybody astray. She is trying to help. She cares. She wants people to find their religious vocations. Continuous interrogation when she has stated quite plainly that she cannot answer all the questions at once just seems uncharitable and unfair. It seems expressing my thoughts has gotten us nowhere. Peace be with you, and a happy Advent.
FutureCarmeliteClaire Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 WOW. This is a mess now, isn't it?
ToJesusMyHeart Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) WOW. This is a mess now, isn't it? :( Edited December 23, 2012 by ToJesusMyHeart
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 Honestly, I wasn't really referring to you when I said it seems like bullying is going on. The bottom line is this: Gemma is not trying to hurt anybody or lead anybody astray. She is trying to help. She cares. She wants people to find their religious vocations. Continuous interrogation when she has stated quite plainly that she cannot answer all the questions at once just seems uncharitable and unfair. It seems expressing my thoughts has gotten us nowhere. Peace be with you, and a happy Advent. Now it does seem like we are beating a dead horse but you need to stop and really try to look at it from a different perspective. No one is saying that Gemma is intentionally trying to hurt anyone or that she doesn't care and want to help. But sometimes good intentions aren't enough. There also has to be accountability and responsibility and reliability and validity. Cloister Outreach has none of these. You keep bringing the topic up when I am content to let SrLaurel continue with her questions after the new year when Gemma said she is free to answer them. And she should answer them if she wants to be taken seriously and if she wants to prove her good intentions by offering substantive evidence that Cloister Outreach is not an imaginary community, simply existing on a listserv somewhere. There is a difference between saying that one has a listserve group and one is establishing a real new community with diocesan approval or a canonist who is guiding them (former claims). As long as the claims do not exceed reality, then there is nothing wrong with a virtual community for those discerning - basically a support group of like minded individuals. It is when people are led into believing that this virtual group is the same as discerning hermit life or religious life on a diocesan level that things get messy. Indeed, I think that SrLaurel is one of the best people to ask these questions as she already has the knowledge and experience to judge whether the answers are adequate or not. As you have not been here very long, you are probably not aware of the long history of claims made on behalf of Cloister Outreach and the controversy when some of those claims were found to be untrue. I offer a voice of support for the questions because I wasted time many years ago looking into CO only to discover that the emperor had no clothes on. I would hope that no one else is (intentionally or unintentionally) led astray into a non-existent community, thinking that it will one day lead them to consecration. One minute we are told that no one has been solemnly professed because there hasn't been time yet, and the next we are told that CO has been around for over 20 years. I do not say that any harm was intended to me, but time was certainly wasted which is harm enough for someone my age! Rather than seeing the questions as 'endless interrogation', why not try to see what they really are, a sincere desire to discover the reality of CO in the interests of all discerners. What is valid will remain and what is not, should not remain. If it is the work of God, then she should be proud to answer any numbers of questions about it without becoming defensive or claiming to be persecuted by others. She (and you) should want to answer the questions, in order to help others understand the truth, whatever that truth may be. Only those who are deceitful feel a need to run from honest and sincere questions about the validity of their work. In fact, Gemma withdrew from this thread several pages ago but said that she would return in the new year to answer what she has not been able to answer so far. If it goes into a few slightly different tangents about hermits and religious communities in the meantime, it will at least keep it alive until she is able to respond more fully. I hope she takes time to think about her claims and then returns to set things straight. She has already addressed some of these issues on her on yahoo group - saying that they do not have diocesan approval and are not seeking it. She also made some post to the effect that private vows should not be made which really confused me because this is between an individual and God. These are things she might address when she returns. And to FCC - no, it isn't a mess when mature adults get together to discuss a serious topic. It's only a mess if people start to throw around emotionally charged words like bully and persecution when what is being asked for is clarification. Adults should be able to have a discussion even when they disagree with each other.
Gabriela Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics? I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day.
Nunsense Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I am curious (as usual): "What do hermits do all day?" I put it in quotes because I know it's a question that people often ask religious, but I know what religious living in community do. I assume hermits spend at least six hours a day in prayer, too. But if they don't eat their meals in common, work for the common support of the community, recreate together, etc., what do they do with that time? Does it depend on the individual hermit? Do some of them practice playing instruments? Write? Do they have access to non-religious library books if they want to read, say, literary classics? I don't know much about this life, but it's really interesting to me. I don't think I'd do it without having lived first in community (I'm not the most disciplined person in the world...), but I could totally see myself doing it one day. SrLaurel would be the person to give you a more definitive answer for consecrated hermits. I can tell you what I did while discerning with the Hermits of Bethlehem, which is different of course, being a laura, and I could tell you what I did as a lay hermit living in the Australian bush for 8 months. At the laura, we each had a job to do that would benefit the laura - mine was simply weeding and using the weed trimmer around the property. One hermit made icons to sell, another would do something else. We prayed the Office 7 times a day in private and did mental prayer and spritiual reading. We had meeting with Father Romano once a week or every two weeks, met with our SD about the same, and saw the Confessor once every two weeks. We did our own laundry and helped with chores around the main house (I did dishes) and did our own laundry. It was pretty much what those in a religious community do but we spent a lot more time alone. When I lived in the bush, I had to maintain the cabin, drive into town for supplies and do chores. I had no electricity or heat or fridge etc so things took a lot longer to do - I washed by hand and used wood for heating etc. But the main focus of the day for me was the Divine Office again, mental prayer, spiritual reading and intercessory prayers for the Church, the Holy Father, priests and others. We only had Mass twice a month out there (lay led Communion Service twice a month and no Mass on the last Sunday) but when I could afford it, I would drive into a neighbouring town and attend Mass there. I hope SrLaurel writes a bit more about the hermit life, but her blog is a great source of information as well.
Sister_Laurel Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 I don't think I said you were called towards them? I was simply offering some praise to Father Romano for his good work and kindness. As for the 'sisters' comment, I just wondered if there was a confusion since there are sisters living next door to the hermits. And when I was there, the laura actually had more men than women, so I didn't really think of them as 'sisters' so much as hermits. No offence was intended so I hope you didn't take it that way. My response was more for clarification than anything else. I loved being there but I wasn't called to their life either. As SrLaurel points out, they do sort of cross the boundary between hermits and community, with the one rule. They remind me a little of the hermits on Mt Carmel who came together and asked St Albert to write a rule of life for them (which the Carmelites still use today). Carmelites actually still refer to themselves as 'hermits in community' but technically (and canononically) they are not hermits even if they have some similarities. Now that SrLaurel has mentioned it, I wonder why Father Romano didn't just create a mixed religious community rather than using canon 603 to consecrate the hermits. They do share the same Plan of Life and have one superior like a religious community. They don't pray the Office in community but they are not solitary hermits all of the time either because they have Vespers once a week and study and Recreation on Sunday. They are allowed to choose another spiritual director if they want although Father Romano was officially the 'desert father'. I met with him from time to time but I also had another SD of my choosing and a Confessor. It is an interesting mix of lifestyles (and vocations) - could suit some people and not others I suppose. One of the differences between lauras and communities is the fact of separate Rules with guidelines for elements shared by the whole group and which allow the laura to function or exist. This allows the hermits to move on and continue living their own Rules and horaria should something happen to the laura. Commentators on Canon 603 are clear that even if the Sacred Congregation allows for lauras (and it does although the canon says nothing at all about it) these should not rise to the level of a community. Other differences include the right of the individual hermits to determine how they make a living (doing spiritual direction, for instance), separate bank accounts, responsibility for one's own insurance, control of one's own use of media, control of own visitors so long as these do not intrude upon the silence and solitude of the entire group, choice of own director and confessor, different diocesan delegates if that is what the hermit chooses, etc, no common habit or logos, no superior, no formation program (lauras are composed of already-professed diocesan hermits), and several others. Coming together to pray part of the time is not a problem unless it is a required thing. These distinctions are becoming clearer as people reflect on canon 603 and its appropriate and inappropriate usage. best, Sister Laurel M O'Neal, Er Dio Stillsong Hermitage Diocese of Oakland http://notesfromstillsong.blogsport.com
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