Winchester Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 As crude as this comment is, it still allows for someone to restrict their search to virgins. Is this a correct interpretation? -AKYeah.Values are subjective. Some people like used cars, some don't.
Lil Red Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 This is pretty much my friend's case. She would be bothered by a sexual past, so she states that she won't marry a man with one. If I could convey the amount of emotional abuse she has suffered, I'd be here for weeks. Things like "you're unChristian", "you're going to Hell", "you can't do that, that's a sin", "you're a coward", "you're anti-Christian", "I'm praying that you never find someone", "God hates you", et cetera. Thank you for being polite. -AK people have said these things to her? :( that's awful! seriously, i hope she punched those people. :| It's carppy that your friend is being treated that way. But no one in this thread has acted in that manner. It was noted by a couple of people that the "I only want to marry a virgin" topic was hashed out here not too long ago and thus some of the responses are colored by that discussion. Largely because people who are not virgins were treated poorly, or talked down to. People haven't been saying it's bad to prefer or hope for marrying a virgin, but that we shouldn't be jerks and dweebs to those who are not. Again, I think you are reading negativity into posts where there is none. this.
Winchester Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Why is your avatar a mallet shaped like a hand that is mallet-like?
cmaD2006 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) This is one of those threads that makes me feel like VS is a really, really pleasant place and that I should go back there. Word ... that's why I've been staying out of VS. And now this! Ok --- venting done :). Augusta -- welcome to PM! I do think that someone who desires that their bride or husband-to-be is a virgin is ok, as long as the person does not automatically condemn those who are not. As others have said there is so much more to chastity than just the physical part, and it is quite possible for someone who had fallen into sin to be perfectly chaste for decades. Having said that -- if it is that important to you, so be it. It is your right to choose your mate as you see fit. :) (and I just finally read the REST of the thread ... it really should read "if it is so important to your friend ... etc." Edited January 30, 2013 by cmariadiaz
Lil Red Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Why is your avatar a mallet shaped like a hand that is mallet-like? some guy.
IcePrincessKRS Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Why is your avatar a mallet shaped like a hand that is mallet-like? The Mallet Fist of DOOM!
EmilyAnn Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Yeah. Values are subjective. Some people like used cars, some don't. In the context of this discussion, I find that comparison highly offensive. People who are not virgins are not "used" or "damaged" or in any way lesser than those who are not.
MissyP89 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 This is pretty much my friend's case. She would be bothered by a sexual past, so she states that she won't marry a man with one. If I could convey the amount of emotional abuse she has suffered, I'd be here for weeks. Things like "you're unChristian", "you're going to Hell", "you can't do that, that's a sin", "you're a coward", "you're anti-Christian", "I'm praying that you never find someone", "God hates you", et cetera. The people who made those comments use similar logic, arguments, and assumptions to some of the people on this thread. It's quite difficult to know that your close friend is in therapy due to the abuse she received from people at her church (Catholic, too), but it's also hard to stay calm when those kinds of people, making the same kinds of arguments, then have the nerve to call my friend "anti-Christian" due to her stated desire. If she ever decides to marry (not likely), she will forever have the comments of those "kind, loving Catholics" from her parish echoing through her head. All due to her "friends" thinking they're better because they can overlook or accept more. Again, this isn't about me, it's my friend, but I'll answer anyway since our views are alike (hopefully it'll give some idea). Well, the temporal consequences of those things are minor, so it's not quite analogous in terms of gravity (but still valid, of course). That said, if someone did not like me entirely, why would I want him to date me? I can't get my head around it. If he doesn't really like me, it would be selfish of me to insist or to guilt him into it. Same goes for marriage: if someone can't love me entirely, due to my personality, views, appearance, fashion, whichever, why on Earth would I want that person to marry me? "I love you, and you mostly love me"? That's a recipe for disaster. What's worse is guilting people into marrying someone they're not entirely happy with. I cringe at the idea of a person, troubled by their partners actions (sexual, etc), at the altar essentially lying while saying the vows. There seems to be a concern with rejection and with unrequited love. As Karl Keating once said, "within easy driving distance, there are a hundred people whom you could marry and have an equally happy life with." I hear echoes of the soulmate theory; "they're perfect, except for this one thing" or "I would have missed out on the man God picked out for me." It doesn't work that way. I think the there are a lot of factors that cause people to lash out when someone says "I only want to marry a virgin like myself." I see the assumptions of bad faith, the holier-than-thou attitudes that they claim to renounce, and the strange perceptions of being arbiters of marriage partners. It's bizarre. If they kept to themselves, it would be okay, and my friend wouldn't be a shell of her former, happy self. Thank you for being polite. -AK OK. I get where she's coming from. It's reasonable. My only concern is that by saying "I will not under any circumstances marry x sort of person" she could really miss out on someone wonderful, you know? My position is more like "I PREFER xyz but I'm going to keep my heart and mind open to see who God brings into my life." It's a lot easier, I've found, to let God bring a couple together instead of trying to force what we think is best for us. Again, I know you're here for your friend. I would just be sad if she lost her chance at her perfect man because she limited herself, that's all. God bless.
KnightofChrist Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 This elevator only goes to the basement. And somebody made an awful mess down there.
Winchester Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 In the context of this discussion, I find that comparison highly offensive. People who are not virgins are not "used" or "damaged" or in any way lesser than those who are not. I didn't say they were. But if you're looking for things to be offended about, just keep track of my posts.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 It makes no sense for someone to state that, especially after the comments I'd made theretofore, and it not be a directed statement. I'll let her clarify if she wishes. That said, if a statement is meant as tangential, it is best left out. -AK As crude as this comment is, it still allows for someone to restrict their search to virgins. Is this a correct interpretation? -AK You sound like either a high school student or a political science major. Am I correct? :smile3:
Winchester Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 ee cummings she being Brand she being Brand -new;and you know consequently a little stiff I was careful of her and (having thoroughly oiled the universal joint tested my gas felt of her radiator made sure her springs were O. K.)i went right to it flooded-the-carburetor cranked her up,slipped the clutch (and then somehow got into reverse she kicked what the hell) next minute i was back in neutral tried and again slo-wly;bare,ly nudg. ing(my lev-er Right- oh and her gears being in A 1 shape passed from low through second-in-to-high like greasedlightning) just as we turned the corner of Divinity avenue i touched the accelerator and give her the juice,good (it was the first ride and believe I we was happy to see how nice and acted right up to the last minute coming back down by the Public Gardens I slammed on the internalexpanding & externalcontracting breaks Bothatonce and brought allofher tremB -ling to a:dead. stand- ;Still) vroom vroom
Augusta Posted January 30, 2013 Author Posted January 30, 2013 Augusta, thanks for your reply. I think I understand more of the situation now. It's sad that your friends are treating your other friend like that. It's not fair or Christian. I want to make one point that I think is crucial here, though. There is a BIG difference between saying "I would like to marry a virgin." and "If they're not a virgin, I won't even consider it." One is a preference, and the other is shutting the door on good people who have made mistakes. At the very least, it's my belief that everyone deserves a fair chance. I think Jesus loved that way. To pass over someone without getting to know them on the sole basis of their sexual status seems presumptive. Again, that's just my feeling. It's as if the thought is, "Oh, you're not a virgin? I'm sorry. You don't qualify to be with me anymore." Note: I am NOT trying to be mean here and my intentions are pure. I am just explaining what that feels like from the position of the person who has sinned. The way she states it is: "no sexual past" (clarified as: "with someone else"). She told me that it would bother her. She was careful to make it known that she wasn't trying to spite anyone or hold any sin against them, just that their sin hurt her. That's basically it. In general I think it's wrong to assume to know someone's reasons for setting such a criterion; worse is to make bad faith assumptions. She was emphatic that it was not: "Oh, you're not a virgin? I'm sorry. You don't qualify to be with me anymore." You make it sound so callous and dismissive (just the way I read it, though). That's not her intent. And again, I don't think she should be ground into the dirt for the sole reason of having bad faith assumptions made of her by various people in her life. In a way, I'm reminded of the people who say that a couple using NFP are "lesser Catholics." Or women who wear pants are "inferior to women who don't." Those things are going overboard into the territory of some kind of aggressive, group-enforced scrupulosity. People who state that virgins who wish to marry virgins are somehow to be despised fall into the same category. All three groups assume the worst, and then act on it, holding themselves as arbiters. The hypocritical and judgmental attitudes are abound. -AK So Augusta... what I am getting out of this is that there is some reason that your friend only wants a virgin, but it is a totally great Christian reason...but what is it?? And I agree that it is TERRIBLE that people would pray that she never finds someone, even if they question her motives, they are judging someone for perceived judging???? That's just silly. The reason need not be "Christian." If "compatible with the Christian faith" counts as Christian, then yes, it is. My previous comments address it, but it's basically emotional and practical. It is silly that people would do that. What annoys me is that many people here did similiar things. That disturbs me. -AK
Winchester Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Your friend should be less callous and dismissive. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_nEKkguXoQ[/media]
Augusta Posted January 30, 2013 Author Posted January 30, 2013 It's carppy that your friend is being treated that way. But no one in this thread has acted in that manner. It was noted by a couple of people that the "I only want to marry a virgin" topic was hashed out here not too long ago and thus some of the responses are colored by that discussion. Largely because people who are not virgins were treated poorly, or talked down to. People haven't been saying it's bad to prefer or hope for marrying a virgin, but that we shouldn't be jerks and dweebs to those who are not. Again, I think you are reading negativity into posts where there is none. It makes sense that there'd be left over resentment and anger from an argument if people were being treated or thought of poorly. I don't think I'm reading negativity into posts, though. I stated in an earlier comment about the many assumptions people had made without asking for clarification first. It's absurd. I asked why the mistreatment of my friend happened, and then the assumptions start flying: that she's a he, that she is marrying someone just because they're a virgin, they're being anti-Christian, et cetera. If you could make a logical connection from my first post to any of those statements (and many others), I will... I don't know... Give you a cookie? That's it. Frankly, I don't need a prize, because there won't be a winner. That's why I'm annoyed. The attitudes I witnessed in real life I see reproduced here without much second thought. -AK Your friend should be less callous and dismissive. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_nEKkguXoQ[/media] Would you like to clarify that remark? What assumptions is it based on? -AK people have said these things to her? :( that's awful! seriously, i hope she punched those people. :| this. She's not a violent person. The damage was already done though, and I don't think there needed to be any more. Let's just say she'll never hear the usual quotes about "forgiveness" or "love" the same. She didn't deserve the treatment she got. Even by a huge stretch of the imagination. I'm trying to find what the precedent was. -AK Word ... that's why I've been staying out of VS. And now this! Ok --- venting done :). Augusta -- welcome to PM! I do think that someone who desires that their bride or husband-to-be is a virgin is ok, as long as the person does not automatically condemn those who are not. As others have said there is so much more to chastity than just the physical part, and it is quite possible for someone who had fallen into sin to be perfectly chaste for decades. Having said that -- if it is that important to you, so be it. It is your right to choose your mate as you see fit. :) (and I just finally read the REST of the thread ... it really should read "if it is so important to your friend ... etc." Yes, it is important to her, and not out of selfish idealism, either. What bothers me is that people think she hasn't thought it through, as though she's too immature to know the ramifications. -AK
IcePrincessKRS Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I don't think I'm reading negativity into posts, though. I stated in an earlier comment about the many assumptions people had made without asking for clarification first. It's absurd. I asked why the mistreatment of my friend happened, and then the assumptions start flying: that she's a he, that she is marrying someone just because they're a virgin, they're being anti-Christian, et cetera. If you could make a logical connection from my first post to any of those statements (and many others), I will... I don't know... Give you a cookie? That's it. Frankly, I don't need a prize, because there won't be a winner. That's why I'm annoyed. The attitudes I witnessed in real life I see reproduced here without much second thought. -AK The way you accuse us of "bad faith assumptions" says otherwise. I have known most of the people posting in this thread for years, some of them for over a decade. I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that you are misinterpreting posts. I'm trying to find what the precedent was. -AK Then I guess you'll have to ask the people who were rude to your friend.
Augusta Posted January 30, 2013 Author Posted January 30, 2013 OK. I get where she's coming from. It's reasonable. My only concern is that by saying "I will not under any circumstances marry x sort of person" she could really miss out on someone wonderful, you know? My position is more like "I PREFER xyz but I'm going to keep my heart and mind open to see who God brings into my life." It's a lot easier, I've found, to let God bring a couple together instead of trying to force what we think is best for us. She's thought it through. She's an adult, and can accept the consequences of her decisions. As she has said in the past, it's better for her to not marry than to marry someone she isn't happy with. Again, the Karl Keating quote above. Again, I know you're here for your friend. I would just be sad if she lost her chance at her perfect man because she limited herself, that's all. She's likely going to miss out on everyone now, perfect or not. The irony is that her friends, due to demanding that she not limit her choices, have left her in a terrible state, unwilling to marry at all. And there's no fewer choices than zero. -AK
Augusta Posted January 30, 2013 Author Posted January 30, 2013 The way you accuse us of "bad faith assumptions" says otherwise. I have known most of the people posting in this thread for years, some of them for over a decade. I can tell you without a moment's hesitation that you are misinterpreting posts. I don't think "many assumptions people had made" is suggesting that all comments are assumptions, or that said assumptions are bad faith ones, or that everyone has made bad faith assumptions. Again, the first page of comments had little to do with my original post, and many of those comments made assumptions that suggested less than acceptable or kind motivations. E.g. suggesting that my friend's decision is "harsh and unforgiving" and reduces "someone to the sum of their sin." That was a bad faith assumption. There was no basis for it, and the least they could have done was ask further questions, rather than concluding that she had the worst possible intentions. Again: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126739-what-gives/?p=2537929 Then I guess you'll have to ask the people who were rude to your friend. Rudeness is too kind a word. -AK
IcePrincessKRS Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I don't think "many assumptions people had made" is suggesting that all comments are assumptions, or that said assumptions are bad faith ones, or that everyone has made bad faith assumptions. Again, the first page of comments had little to do with my original post, and many of those comments made assumptions that suggested less than acceptable or kind motivations. E.g. suggesting that my friend's decision is "harsh and unforgiving" and reduces "someone to the sum of their sin." That was a bad faith assumption. There was no basis for it, and the least they could have done was ask further questions, rather than concluding that she had the worst possible intentions. Again: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/126739-what-gives/?p=2537929 Rudeness is too kind a word. -AK I don't think anyone in this thread has made assumptions about your friend. Comments have been made in very generic terms about how SOME people react or think. You are the one applying those comments to your friend.
Recommended Posts