Santa Claus

[Archaeology cat]

I don't understand how that was lying to that kid, really. All knew it was pretend play. It was just a bit of fun. Can some go overboard with Santa? Sure. I dislike using him as bribery/leverage. But there needn't be a problem with Santa, I think.

Oh, and as for knowing how to interact with adults, children learn that whether their parents play pretend with them or not. My interactions with my children are varied, since we don't play all day long. Pretend play can help them learn about adult interactions, though. Like when my youngest hands me a phone to "answer". I can then model phone etiquette, while possibly being silly.

God bless

[blazeingstar]

I don't understand how that was lying to that kid, really. All knew it was pretend play. It was just a bit of fun. Can some go overboard with Santa? Sure. I dislike using him as bribery/leverage. But there needn't be a problem with Santa, I think.

Oh, and as for knowing how to interact with adults, children learn that whether their parents play pretend with them or not. My interactions with my children are varied, since we don't play all day long. Pretend play can help them learn about adult interactions, though. Like when my youngest hands me a phone to "answer". I can then model phone etiquette, while possibly being silly.

God bless

 

All Santa is lying.  There are very few cases where it isn't except those where Santa is called pretend.

 

I won't be lying to my children, I won't be "play answering" a phone or anything else that requires lying.  There's no one else at the other end. You may do so as a parent, that's your prerogative.  I am a champion for parental rights, so long as the kid isn't in danger.

[EmilyAnn]

You have a very skewed idea of what lying consists of. 

 

A life without imagination is a very sad life indeed. 

[Archaeology cat]

"2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282"

No intention to deceive in play answering a phone, so no lie. Santa needn't involve an intent to deceive, so isn't lying.

[Slappo]

This:

No, I don't.  Infact, I was the one who was all over Table when he stated that any fiction and fantacy was a lie.  Stories, when put in the context of being facts are a lie.   However, there's no getting around the fact that how 99% of how parents convey Santa involves many, many lies.  This would include chimney sliding and reigndeers, etc, etc.

contradicts this:

I won't be lying to my children, I won't be "play answering" a phone or anything else that requires lying.  There's no one else at the other end. You may do so as a parent, that's your prerogative.  I am a champion for parental rights, so long as the kid isn't in danger.

 

 

In the context of play, pretend answering a phone that is not ringing is not a lie.

 

In the context of play, pretending Santa comes down a chimney after flying across space and time in a carriage pulled by coherent reindeer to deliver presents is not a lie.

 

 

I agree that tricking kids into actually believing Santa is real is lying. We don't plan on teaching our kids that Santa exists, but we certainly don't plan on restricting them from having fictional books that reference Santa Claus either. They will know it is fictional, and that it is pretend.

 

 

If it helps, just read the bolded. Playing pretend is not a lie, tricking kids into believing fantasy is real is lying.

[CrossCuT]

I read an article from the Times about sexual promiscuity amongst college students. It was a lengthy article discussing a lot of aspects of the situation but they touched on some early developmental psychology.

Historically, boys and girls were raised the same as children receiving the same amount of love and care UNTIL a certain age. At this age, boys are told to buck up and toughen up. The psychologist discussed how this lack of continued care for boys may explain why men in their sexually active years tend to be way more promiscuous or have multiple partners.

 

The whole "Life is sad" and "face reality" mentality you seem to have blazey could be very detrimental to a young child. Children should grow up in a loving, protective home (within reason) and not in an environment where they are forced to grow up fast and deal with situations that are beyond their abilities to understand. To tell a child that all their hopes and dreams are all fake and littered with lies could do some serious damage to their psyche.

 

Of course there is no sweeping one size fits all situation...every child is different. Some are more able to handle such things but I dont think  you should experiment on your children to test whether or not they can handle the cold hard facts of the world. 

 

 

When I worked at a daycare there were two siblings (Girl in 4th grade and boy in 3rd) whose parents were divorced and father was an alcoholic. The sister was probably one of the most mature girls of her age that I had ever met. She showed a vast amount of wisdom beyond her years however she rarely smiled. 

One day their father came to pick them up, but I got a call saying he was drunk. Because we didnt want the kids to see their father intoxicated, we took them to the school office where we called their mother. 

 

Now if I didnt want to lie to them, I could have said "Hey guys your dad is drunk and we are going to call your mom". That might be difficult for them to understand and very upsetting so instead, I told them nothing and just called their mother.

[blazeingstar]

I read an article from the Times about sexual promiscuity amongst college students. It was a lengthy article discussing a lot of aspects of the situation but they touched on some early developmental psychology.

Historically, boys and girls were raised the same as children receiving the same amount of love and care UNTIL a certain age. At this age, boys are told to buck up and toughen up. The psychologist discussed how this lack of continued care for boys may explain why men in their sexually active years tend to be way more promiscuous or have multiple partners.

 

The whole "Life is sad" and "face reality" mentality you seem to have blazey could be very detrimental to a young child. Children should grow up in a loving, protective home (within reason) and not in an environment where they are forced to grow up fast and deal with situations that are beyond their abilities to understand. To tell a child that all their hopes and dreams are all fake and littered with lies could do some serious damage to their psyche.

 

Of course there is no sweeping one size fits all situation...every child is different. Some are more able to handle such things but I dont think  you should experiment on your children to test whether or not they can handle the cold hard facts of the world. 

 

 

When I worked at a daycare there were two siblings (Girl in 4th grade and boy in 3rd) whose parents were divorced and father was an alcoholic. The sister was probably one of the most mature girls of her age that I had ever met. She showed a vast amount of wisdom beyond her years however she rarely smiled. 

One day their father came to pick them up, but I got a call saying he was drunk. Because we didnt want the kids to see their father intoxicated, we took them to the school office where we called their mother. 

 

Now if I didnt want to lie to them, I could have said "Hey guys your dad is drunk and we are going to call your mom". That might be difficult for them to understand and very upsetting so instead, I told them nothing and just called their mother.

 

 

So call CPS.  I don't give a hoot. If you think that is damaging their psyce then call the storm troopers, they will be my kids, not yours, and fortunately for me, you have no say in how I will raise my children.

 

And seriously.  I said that I am not going to lie to them.  I didn't say I would kick a dog.  I didn't say I wouldn't let them have dreams.  If my child declares they want to be a doctor or actor or astronaut I will encourage them.  If they say they want to grow up to be a pony I will tell them thats not possible but they could care for ponies.  

 

Kids are lie detectors.  There is no need to upset them, but it would be a lie to say that their dad was fine.  I'd be dollars to donuts that they knew their dad was a drunk.

 

I knew that my friend's mom/my next door neighbor was suicidal when I was 7.  I knew that when she didn't come home she was in a loony bin for the night.  My friend was clueless so were my brothers and her siblings.  Out of all of us I had a greatest imagination that was untouchable.  My friend was in honors but I had the smarts. But I didn't have need for adults to come around and play with me.  Nor do I see the need for the children that I nanny.  They all seem to have developed into functional children verging on adulthood and none appear have irreparably damaged psyches.  Their parents aren't mad at me for my lack of lying to their children, and I let the children have their own games.  

 

But if I'm all that bad, I guess I'll just raise a bunch of serial killers.  Oh well.

[blazeingstar]

This:

contradicts this:

 

 

In the context of play, pretend answering a phone that is not ringing is not a lie.

 

In the context of play, pretending Santa comes down a chimney after flying across space and time in a carriage pulled by coherent reindeer to deliver presents is not a lie.

 

 

I agree that tricking kids into actually believing Santa is real is lying. We don't plan on teaching our kids that Santa exists, but we certainly don't plan on restricting them from having fictional books that reference Santa Claus either. They will know it is fictional, and that it is pretend.

 

 

If it helps, just read the bolded. Playing pretend is not a lie, tricking kids into believing fantasy is real is lying.

 

It does not contradict that at all.  Telling a story IS NOT LYING!  I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WAS Telling you children that Santa is a make believe story and that he has make believe magical power is a story.  IT IS A LIE TO TELL THEM SANTA CAN REALLY DO ALL THIS WHICH 99% of parents do!!!  To deny that fact is to deny the truth. Answering a fake phone when a child believes that there is a person on the other end IS lying.  There is no person on the other end....not unless you have voices in your head which is 

 

99% of parents tell their children boldface lies about Santa.  And then they get defensive and peer pressure other parents who don't want to lie into doing so to protect their children's fragile little psyce's....when they're the one lying.

 

My children will be taught that Santa is as real as Batman.

[Archaeology cat]

I've actually not met a child who didnt know the phone game was just that - a game. My 13-month-old doesn't really think I'm talking to someone. He just thinks it's funny. Same with the others.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm getting the sense someone grew up resentful of the rich kids at church and was lied to a lot as a child. I may be wrong, but no one feels this strongly about something when it isn't personal in some way.

My parents taught us Santa is real. Since I was homeschooled, the cat was never officially out of the bag until I was ten. I say "officially" because I was a bright young boy and started questioning the reality of Santa a few years previously. When I found out, my life wasn't over and I was just fine. I was never sad and was quite indifferent about it. Do I agree with my parents convincing us Santa is real? No. But they meant well, I have great memories from it (My dad used to walk on the roof in the night and leave boot prints on the floor), and my psychological well-being is just fine.

[Slappo]

play answering a phone is fantasy, but you said it is lying.

99% is an awful big number. I doubt 99% of parents teach their kids that Santa is real and truly exists

[blazeingstar]

Look at you and your little club all propping eachother out of existance

 

 

I've actually not met a child who didnt know the phone game was just that - a game. My 13-month-old doesn't really think I'm talking to someone. He just thinks it's funny. Same with the others.

 

And I think it's lying.  To each their own.

 

 

I'm getting the sense someone grew up resentful of the rich kids at church and was lied to a lot as a child. I may be wrong, but no one feels this strongly about something when it isn't personal in some way.

My parents taught us Santa is real. Since I was homeschooled, the cat was never officially out of the bag until I was ten. I say "officially" because I was a bright young boy and started questioning the reality of Santa a few years previously. When I found out, my life wasn't over and I was just fine. I was never sad and was quite indifferent about it. Do I agree with my parents convincing us Santa is real? No. But they meant well, I have great memories from it (My dad used to walk on the roof in the night and leave boot prints on the floor), and my psychological well-being is just fine.

 

And I feel like you needed more hugs from your dad.  I don't think you were particularly bright becuase you figured out this at all of ten, my fiancee figured it out clearly at 6.  He does not feel lied to, and said he enjoyed he is also admiant we will not lie to our children in any form.  He grew up with the ideal childhood and he wants to raise our children like his parents raised him, ecept for Santa.  His family was also much too into haloween for my tastes, but I told him that if he wants to decorate the yard he can do that on his own.  I like dogs and I know the dog will be my dog and he will not do anything for it.  It's a balance.

 

play answering a phone is fantasy, but you said it is lying.

99% is an awful big number. I doubt 99% of parents teach their kids that Santa is real and truly exists

 

To me play answering the phone is a lie.  I do not see it as fantacy. I see batman and pokemon and dress up as fantacy but not answering a phone that is clearly not ringing or drinking from a teacup that has no liquid as fantacy.

 

Of those who tell their children about Santa I think most of them try and create true believers.  I'm not talking about those who don't have Santa like Moslems, Hindus and Jews.

Edited December 12, 2013 by blazeingstar

[CrossCuT]

The cake is a lie.

[blazeingstar]

The cake is a lie.

 

spoken like a true liar (and you did lie to me claiming you were a seceret mod so there's no denying that).

[KnightofChrist]

If Blaze is being truthful about the whole "to each their own" bit, what's the purpose of continuing this discussion? Relativistic debates are pointless. If someone can believe it's a lie to answer a call from the imagination of a child, or to believe it would not, to each their own, then that's that. The End. Otherwise we all get stuck in a temporal causality loop.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

And anoyingly so forth forever.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

[KnightofChrist]

spoken like a true liar (and you did lie to me claiming you were a seceret mod so there's no denying that).

Are lies of omission in fact lies?

[CrossCuT]

(and you did lie to me claiming you were a seceret mod so there's no denying that).

 

Wouldnt you like to know  :evil:

[blazeingstar]

If Blaze is being truthful about the whole "to each their own" bit, what's the purpose of continuing this discussion? Relativistic debates are pointless. If someone can believe it's a lie to answer a call from the imagination of a child, or to believe it would not, to each their own, then that's that. The End. Otherwise we all get stuck in a temporal causality loop.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

And anoyingly so forth forever.

I think Santa is a lie, but to each their own.

I think Santa is not a lie, but to each their own.

 

I think Santa is a lie and that lying is wrong, especally to children.  However, I am very much an advocate for parental rights as they are often trampled by our goverment and peer pressure.  We have mothers having mental breakdowns over not being able to nurse, or co-sleep or cloth diaper.  We have fathers feeling emasculated becuase they sons have been potty trained to pee sitting or were/weren't circumsized or any other contraversial parenting subject.  So if parents want to lie to their kids I am not going to call shenanagans on the basis of parental rights.  If I was advising another parent I certinally would let them know it's a terrible idea.

 

I won't go so far as to say those parents who tell their children Santa is real are harming their children, but I also do not think they are benefiting their children, nor doing them any favors.

 

I also think that parents lie to their children because it's easier being a playmate than being a parent.  This extends to those times when the child grows older and the parent lies about sneaking out, or about a boyfriend before their father.  There are some things that are none of their business, and that can be stated clearly.  However, the betrayal of a lie, especally as a child grows is deeper.  I do not think the truth can ever be hidden.  There can be prudence surrounding certian actions, but sooner or later the truth will be revailed either in whole or in part.  I know many parents who were abused as children and cut off ties to their parents and told their children that their parents were "mean or bad" and persisted in not telling anything more until that child was well old enough to know and very curious about their biological family and are now in huge battles with their estranged parents becasuse JR or Etta found their aunt/uncle/grandparent on facebook and now communicates with this nice and friendly and wonderful person.  I think this sort of habit is started early in a child's life with the parent trying to create a magical childhood for thier child with things like Santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny and leprechauns.

 

I think it starts with Santa, covert pretend play and other things.  I feel that its the start of a slipery slope.  And despite your all predicitons of doom and gloom, I have managed to be a favorite nanny, psuedo auntie and babysitter among the children that I care for.  They all seem to be very healty, well balanced children weither or not their parents act like me, or do the whole Santa thing.  I must say though one of the children, now 13, is very bitter about Santa and the lies (she found out at 11) and does trust me and her friend more than her parents/aunts becuase we didn't participate in it.  Her sister "knows" about Santa but even at 10 is glad for the game.

[blazeingstar]

Wouldnt you like to know  :evil:

 

I do know.  I'm friends with mods.

[blazeingstar]

Are lies of omission in fact lies?

 

I believe neither lies of omission, nor lies of necessity, are moralistically considered mortal sins or serious venial sins as full lies would be.  There is much debate on Aquantis' part on this as well as scriptuarly.  For this reason I believe that they should only be reserved for matters of gravity, to prevent abuse, murder or other mortal sins since they verge on the venial.

Edited December 12, 2013 by blazeingstar