Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Socrates]

 

So you would not harm a person disrespecting the flag, but you would let someone else do it instead? What was that about freedom again?

Take it seriously all you want. But it is both sociopathic and hugely contradictory to wish allow or commit harm on someone who peacefully, if distastefully, disagrees with you.

 

You runnin' down my country, hoss, you're walkin' on the fightin' side of me!

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Good song, not a sentiment I can relate to.

[Ice_nine]

I don't care if anyone wants to burn the American flag either. They only thing that makes me wary is if there is a desire or intention for real violence behind it.

Maybe I should care, but it's cloth. I like being free (relatively speaking) and being able to walk around most places without the fear or expectation that I'll get blown to smitherenes, but I'm not proud of my country's aggressive, blow-anyone-to-hell foreign policy and call it "fighting for freedom," while the US has a two-tiered educational and judicial system that negatively affect poor and/or black folks while it favors the wealthy and/or white folks.

I wouldn't burn an American flag (or any nation's flag, except maybe ISIS idk) because I know it means a lot to some people. But I'm not gonna attack or wish harm upon any that might. I think the star spangled banner represents all the wonderful ideals our country has to offer, but also bloodshed, racism, hypocrisy as well. A lot of really terrible atrocities have been done in the name of America and there are no doubt a number of people who see nothing but pain and oppression when they look at it.

But it's silly to say "well if you want the confed. flag to be banned then you should also want the American flag to be banned . . ." because it ain't gonna happen. The USA is the winner. She gets to fly her flag. Can you imagine if the government actually acknowledged all the terrible things that have been done under the flag?! lol not gonna happen

[Socrates]

I'm actually against the desecration of either flag, though I'm a little ambivalent about banning flag-burning by federal law (mostly for "slippery slope"-type reasons).

My point (if anyone's actually referring to it) was that a lot of liberals are very inconsistent and hypocritical in their approach to "free speech" issues.  They believe absolute free expression should be protected, and even publicly funded, if it happens to offend certain persons (i.e. Christians or patriotic Americans), but not if it offends other persons (i.e. Muslims, or those offended by Confederate flags).

[Peace]

Pretty interesting thread you have here.  My initial thought about the Confederate Flag was "ban it" but I think there is a good argument that people should be free to use it, as a form of free speech. The argument about how some people view the US Flag and other symbols was rather convincing I think.

At the same time - if there were a vote: "Should the Confederate Flag be hung on state property" - I would definitely vote "no". I would hope that others would be considerate of the way that many people view that flag, and what it means to them, regardless of what it means to them personally, when deciding how to vote on themselves.

For me, my High School Mascot was "Indians". When we put on the uniforms we did not mean to offend anyone by it. Perhaps to us the Mascot was a symbol of "fighting spirit". But at the same time, if I know that the use of that is offensive and painful to many Native Americans, I would want to think twice about whether it is something that I need to use, or whether I can use something else as a Mascot.

You don't necessarily have to stop using the Mascot or take the flag down, but at least consider how other people view it, and ask yourself if whether what you get out of using it is worth the pain that it's use might inflict on other people . . .

I think most of the frustration on the part of people who want to ban it is that the people who want to continue using seem not to care much about the pain it causes them.

 

I just don't see it ma'am. I know there are those that will always find something wrong with what other people say right or wrong no mater what. But I still highly doubt you or others would have objected to the manner in which I spoke if it was happening in front of our eyes instead of being hidden away in a clinic. Actually I believe most would be far more passionate than I.

I understand racism exist elsewhere there is no doubt of that. Nor is there any doubt that the effects of racism elsewhere are grave threats to African-Americans too. I deplore racism in all its works. But the gravest threat, the threat that dwarfs all others is abortion in African-American communities. That is simply not up for debate and one believes that or one denies it, but it is the truth.

But as I look out into society I see little to no talk about it. Which makes me all the more passionate about it. It feels as if I'm an observer at a hospital seeing the doctors treating one group of patients who've been moderately to seriously injured, while the doctors ignore other patients in graver conditions as they are still being attacked and killed in far higher numbers. Or to put it another way I see society objecting to and being focused on holes being put in the roof of a house while ignoring or paying very little attention to the destruction of the foundation of that house. In those cases I have no doubt that most people, all good persons would feel as I feel and say as I say, yes the holes in the roof are very important but what good is a house if the foundation is destroyed?! That is what is happening to the African-American community. The very foundation of that community which perpetuates its continued existence is being smashed and destroyed. It's being destroyed as America debates the Confederate flag, it's being destroyed as you read these words, it's being destroyed as it is being ignored by society as a whole. 

I am sorry you object to the way I warn against it. I really don't know how else to do so. I suppose I'm not really delicate or soft in my approach, but I don't know how to treat this subject softly or delicately. If you agree that abortion is the gravest threat to the African-American community as I do then give me examples of the type of language I could use rather than just object to the type of language I use presently. How would you warn against this threat, what language would or do you use against it?

Are you African American? If not it would seem rather audacious that you would attempt to tell an African American what is the biggest problem facing his/her community. It would be like if I were to walk onto a Native American reservation and proclaim "Don't you people know what your biggest problem is? Alcoholism!" I could expect their reaction to be "who are you and where do you get the right to speak on our behalf?"

[CatherineM]

I've burned an American flag. The proper way of retiring a flag that has become tattered. Did it with my VFW post and with the Boy Scouts. 

[Socrates]

The reality is, only a small minority of actual American Indians get upset by such things.  Most Indians are cool with the sports mascots.

You generally don't name a football team after a group of people to insult them; you name teams after men known and respected for their courage, toughness, etc.

Do cowboys get upset over the name of the Dallas team?  (Though that would be understandable, for other reasons, lulz)  Persons of Scandinavian descent get outraged over the Minnesota Vikings?  And what about the Notre Dame "Fighting Irish?"

We've got too much silly pc feigned "outrage" in our culture, and too many stupid demands made based on (real or alleged) hurt feelings.  Some folks really need to man up and get a life.

In any case, such decisions should be made by the school or sports franchise, rather than by courts (though I think we agree there).

[Peace]

In any case, such decisions should be made by the school or sports franchise, rather than by courts (though I think we agree there).

Yes. This about the only area where I would agree with your last post.

[dUSt]

Why is everybody arguing? The confederate flag isn't banned.

Personally, I encourage racists to fly confederate flags. That way, I can stay away from them and avoid their businesses. I actually think the removal of confederate flags will make it harder on black people, because now:

1. It will be harder to tell the racists from the non-racists
2. It will just give the racists another reason to be racist

It's like the people who say, "I don't see color". I don't trust those people. Everybody sees color, and we should. We should acknowledge, embrace and celebrate our differences. Political correctness has disguised society as conforming to a standard--but in reality, it's just an ugly mask hiding our true colors. I say let those true colors fly, and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not scared.
 

Edited July 7, 2015 by dUSt

[Winchester]

Secession isn't treason, but the proximate cause of secession was the nullification of the fugitive slave laws by other states in the union. The confederacy was formed because some people were interfering with other peoples' claims of ownership of human beings. Imagine if part of Germany seceded from another part of Germany because Germans in that area were helping Jews escape their trips to the death camps. The motivation for secession was evil (although secession itself is perfectly legitimate).

The war occurred for reasons of political power (although some abolitionists did regard it was a war against slavery). The North was belligerent, the South fell for it, and then there was a big war where a bunch of poor stupid bastards died in the name of political power. It's a shame that the armies didn't march the politicians on both sides into a field to force them to fight.

It took slavers and control freaks on both sides to cause the war. Neither government was good. And the whole "heritage not hate" thing is belied by the grotesquely evil rules set up in the South to bolster segregation and dehumanize black people. It's quite evident from the racism (which reached murderous levels and used government power) following the end of the war that the South had a sizable number of racists (with access to political clout). There's nothing really to be proud of. It's a rag. It represents a useless war and a disgusting commitment to slavery at the expense of relative peace.

 

But if you wish to associate with that sort, go ahead. Fly that thing high so we know who you are. I'm grateful to the diamondback for shaking his rattle.

[dominicansoul]

the irony....

 

https://www.facebook.com/WTRangers/videos/864178283673640/

 

 

 

[Papist]

Why is everybody arguing? The confederate flag isn't banned.

Personally, I encourage racists to fly confederate flags. That way, I can stay away from them and avoid their businesses. I actually think the removal of confederate flags will make it harder on black people, because now:

1. It will be harder to tell the racists from the non-racists
2. It will just give the racists another reason to be racist

It's like the people who say, "I don't see color". I don't trust those people. Everybody sees color, and we should. We should acknowledge, embrace and celebrate our differences. Political correctness has disguised society as conforming to a standard--but in reality, it's just an ugly mask hiding our true colors. I say let those true colors fly, and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not scared. I got nothing to hide.
 

so....confederate flag = racist?

[dUSt]

so....confederate flag = racist?

No, I don't think so. Bo and Luke were not racist, and I am upset that The Dukes of Hazard is being affected by this.

With that said, I openly admit to stereotyping the people who fly confederate flags as being more racist than most, yes.

Also, the point has already been made--it has become a symbol of racism. Would you fly a rainbow flag in front of your home, even though you don't personally believe the rainbow is a symbol of the LGBT movement?

Edited July 7, 2015 by dUSt

[Guest]

 

Where I live, I've seen a lot of black Catholics in the parishes around here, white people, black people, and international people worshiping together. Can we do a better job? No doubt. Maybe God is calling you to do something…

I'm probably wrong about the few # of black Catholics. There's probably way more then I imagine. I just know they are very visible in other denominations and non denominations. But at the same time I know two extremely talented Catholic rappers who are black. Right now the Parish I go to is all Mexican. I'm the only white guy. Most of the Masses are in Spanish. 

[Papist]

No, I don't think so. Bo and Luke were not racist, and I am upset that The Dukes of Hazard is being affected by this.

With that said, I openly admit to stereotyping the people who fly confederate flags as being more racist than most, yes.

Also, the point has already been made--it has become a symbol of racism. Would you fly a rainbow flag in front of your home, even though you don't personally believe the rainbow is a symbol of the LGBT movement?

Rainbow flag was created for the purpose of being they symbol for gays. The Confederate battle flag was not created to be a symbol for racists.

[Lilllabettt]

Rainbow flag was created for the purpose of being they symbol for gays. The Confederate battle flag was not created to be a symbol for racists.

It was created to be the symbol for a racist cause (the confederacy, established to protect the institution of slavery.)

[Papist]

It was created to be the symbol for a racist cause (the confederacy, established to protect the institution of slavery.)

Largely to do with State's rights and greed. Not all slaves were black. Not all slave owners were white. 

[dUSt]

Rainbow flag was created for the purpose of being they symbol for gays. The Confederate battle flag was not created to be a symbol for racists.

"The choice of the rainbow in the form of a flag harkens back to the rainbow as a symbol of biblical promise. According to the Bible, God first created the rainbow as a sign to Noah that there would never again be a world-wide flood,^[1][2] also known as the Rainbow covenant. The reformer Thomas Müntzer (1489–1525) connected socially revolutionary claims with his preaching of the gospel. He is often portrayed with a rainbow flag in his hand."

So, I ask the question again.

[Papist]

"The choice of the rainbow in the form of a flag harkens back to the rainbow as a symbol of biblical promise. According to the Bible, God first created the rainbow as a sign to Noah that there would never again be a world-wide flood,^[1][2] also known as the Rainbow covenant. The reformer Thomas Müntzer (1489–1525) connected socially revolutionary claims with his preaching of the gospel. He is often portrayed with a rainbow flag in his hand."

So, I ask the question again.

So the gays are just being biblical. Interesting.  Answer to your question is no I would not fly the rainbow flag at my house. I also would not fly a confederate battle flag nor a MIA-POW flag nor a don't tread on me flag nor a skull and cross-bone flag. I only fly an US flag at my house. I am not trying to defend the people who use the confederate battle flag for their racist purpose. I am defending those, which some I know personally, that hold the confederate battle flag as a symbol of them being proud of being southern.  Is the confederate battle flag a wrong symbol for them to hold on to? Perhaps. Nonetheless, they are not racist in and of itself for choosing the confederate battle flag.....and should be free to do so.

That said, I don't believe the confederate battle flag should be part of any official government officialese.  It should have a proper place for historical purpose set aside from government officialese.  Unity was Lincoln's top priority, and I for one want that too. The Civil War was a ugly, dark time for our country.  But it is still is part of our history and I believe it best to preserve that history even the ugly. Actual history, not revisionist history.

[Credo in Deum]

Oddly enough the LGBT rainbow flag only has 6 colors while the Rainbow in the Bible had 7, since it was a reminder of the covenant God made with man.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Credo in Deum