Are You Saved?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Dave' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:14 PM'] I have been saved, I am currently being saved, and I hope to be saved. [/quote]
Word.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:04 PM'] The Holy Gospel According to St. Matthew Chapter X, Verse XXII
The Sacred Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ:
[color=#FF0000]he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.[/color]

If I persevere to the end, I will be eternally saved. [/quote]
You [i]will[/i] be eternally saved. I believe that of you. Why don't you?

God made a promise for his Son's sake. All that are given to him, he will not lose. To suggest that Jesus can "lose" you is to suggest that nothing that he did was good enough to accomplish the task of salvation.

Hope, faith and love are separate things. Hope does not equal faith. Yesterday on another thread most of you said that you are saved by faith, but you all constantly stop short of Giving God the full Glory per [i]his[/i] work on the cross. With you guys, it's "grace", but not grace alone. It's Christ, but not Christ alone. It's faith, but not faith alone.

It's faith plus yourselves, which is no faith at all.

[Guest Aluigi]

oi ve.

i have no assurance of my future salvation and neither do you. that's what the Bible says.

faith is dead without works, that's what the Bible says.

I'll follow the Bible in its full context, and you can follow the misconceptions you've developed about it based on verses out of context.

[quote]It's faith plus yourselves, which is no faith at all.[/quote]
Correction: faith without works is no faith at all (St. Jame's inspired epistle!)

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:18 PM'] Following Saint Paul's advice in his Epistle to the Romans (hey, I'm basically a Roman, Catholic in the Roman Rite ) [i]Chapter XII Verse XII[/i], I rejoice in my hope (not my assurance) for salvation. [/quote]
Dude...

[i]Ro 12:12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.[/i]

Where is the mention of salvation? This passage is about love.

[Guest Aluigi]

Be rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer.



That's just the scripture pertinent to my attitude regarding my salvation.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Aluigi

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:38 PM'] oi ve.

i have no assurance of my future salvation and neither do you. that's what the Bible says.

faith is dead without works, that's what the Bible says.

I'll follow the Bible in its full context, and you can follow the misconceptions you've developed about it based on verses out of context.


Correction: faith without works is no faith at all (St. Jame's inspired epistle!) [/quote]
Wow. James is better than Jesus, eh?

What about what Jesus told the rich young ruler? That man told Jesus he'd kept the commandments since his was a child, but Jesus struck that down rather quickly, did he not?

And what about the parable of the workers in the vineyard? He who is first shall be last and the last, first?

And what about the Pharisee and tax collector? Who went home justified? The one with all the good works? Or the cast off tax collector?

God proved in his word, over and over, that humans cant be trusted to do the work that is salvation. Adam couldn't do it, Israel couldn't do it, but for some reason, you can all of a sudden? Why? If it's not due to God's promise, on accoung of his Son, our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ... It's not the work of the Gospel testified to by the Holy Spirit, then yes indeed it is just you, and you are doomed.

But you are not, because the righteousness required by the righteous demands of a Just and Holy God have been met in Christ. This is what Paul tells us, this is what Jesus told us, but the schism of the reformation caused many to take the opposite route and try to walk the narrow path alone. They cannot do it alone. No one ever could without faith, and in the end it was that faith alone that did it.

All else is secondary. Humans don't like to hear that they contribute nothing to thier own salvation. That is a shame, because in the end, the free gift of grace is the only good reason a Christian has to fight the good fight of sanctification. The problem is people think that the fight itself saves them, but it doesn't.

Sorry, but it has to be said. Someone just coming in and crying "repent" doesn't do it for many people.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:44 PM'] Be rejoicing in hope. Patient in tribulation. Instant in prayer.



That's just the scripture pertinent to my attitude regarding my salvation. [/quote]
The passage is still about love.

[toledo_jesus]

It isn't Jesus losing us, it is us making the decision to act in a way that cuts us off from Jesus and His Father's obvious requirements to join Him. Our salvation is an immediate thing, minute to minute. To claim that accepting Jesus as your Savior one time and never being able to throw that Salvation away is not a well thought out position.

[ironmonk]

Why don't you believe the words of Christ?



[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, [b]but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/b][/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[b][color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color][/b]



Have you endured to the end of your life yet?

If not, you do not know if you will be saved.

Or do you say that Jesus lied?

[Guest Aluigi]

all your examples: grace n faith missing! duh! but james, INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, says faith needs works. the rich guy was asked to sell all he had and give it to the poor (a work!) but he didn't. his faith was dead.

[i]The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, Chapter XIX, Verses xvi-xvii[/i] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
[The Sacred Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ:]
[color=#FF0000] Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/color]

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:06 PM'] Why don't you believe the words of Christ?



[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, [b]but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/b][/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[b][color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color][/b]



Have you endured to the end of your life yet?

If not, you do not know if you will be saved.

Or do you say that Jesus lied? [/quote]
Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he shall lose none of us? Indeed the proof of one's election is perseverance, but you do not work your perseverance. Jesus did that on the cross.

This kind of scriptural arguing goes nowhere because everyone can prooftext thier way through this. But the entirity of scripture is the proof.

[Andrea348]

[quote name='Dave' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:14 PM'] I have been saved, I am currently being saved, and I hope to be saved. [/quote]
you took the words out of my mouth

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:14 PM'] all your examples: grace n faith missing! duh! but james, INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, says faith needs works. the rich guy was asked to sell all he had and give it to the poor (a work!) but he didn't. his faith was dead.

[i]The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, Chapter XIX, Verses xvi-xvii[/i] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
[The Sacred Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ:]
[color=#FF0000] Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/color] [/quote]
Wow, how flippant. What about the rest of it?

[quote]Mt 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Mt 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
Mt 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Mt 19:27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
Mt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Mt 19:30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.[/quote]

And then comes the parable of the workers in the vineyard, to explain what he was talking about. I just had this discussion with a messianic Jew who thinks he can do the whole law and still be faithful to Christ. It's sad.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:55 PM'] God proved in his word, over and over, that humans cant be trusted to do the work that is salvation. Adam couldn't do it, Israel couldn't do it, but for some reason, you can all of a sudden? Why? If it's not due to God's promise, on accoung of his Son, our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ... It's not the work of the Gospel testified to by the Holy Spirit, then yes indeed it is just you, and you are doomed.

But you are not, because the righteousness required by the righteous demands of a Just and Holy God have been met in Christ. This is what Paul tells us, this is what Jesus told us, but the schism of the reformation caused many to take the opposite route and try to walk the narrow path alone. They cannot do it alone. No one ever could without faith, and in the end it was that faith alone that did it.

All else is secondary. Humans don't like to hear that they contribute nothing to thier own salvation. That is a shame, because in the end, the free gift of grace is the only good reason a Christian has to fight the good fight of sanctification. The problem is people think that the fight itself saves them, but it doesn't.

Sorry, but it has to be said. Someone just coming in and crying "repent" doesn't do it for many people. [/quote]
ok. Firstly, works without faith is nothing, and vice versa. Having faith without doing works is like a tree that bears no fruit. Likewise, we know our faith by its fruits, those fruits being works. the argument can be made that good works is a natural outlet for faith.
secondly, humans are indeed not responsible for their salvation. However, along with the gift of salvation we were also given the gift of free will, by which we can choose to freely reject the gift God has given us. We do this by sinning. When we decide to have sex before marriage, or to blaspheme the name of the Lord, or to attack the Church He established, we sin. Ignorance and also to an extent habit or compulsion mitigate the effect of sin by removing culpability. Without culpability there is no sin, therefore a man who is compelled by a disease to constantly shout out the name of the Lord in profane connotations is not sinning. So, though humans can not engineer their salvation, they can indeed contribute to their damnation.
I take issue with saying that the fight can't save you. Why, if you are fighting then you must recognize that there is sin to struggle against. and if you are struggling you are not giving full assent of the will. I would daresay that sometimes the only thing that does save us is the fight. We must fight against our own evil inclinations, and fight against our ability to reject God.

[Balthazor]

my bank sez Jesus saves.....

[Guest Aluigi]

I know the rest of it, the rest of it affirms my belief. You are not having the same conversation with me as you had with the messianic Jew (although the way you paint my beliefs, of course you would be)

What does that parable mean? The workers in the vineyard who had been toiling forever are just as worthy as those who just started toiling, because the toil to keep faith alive is what creates the mode of grace and salvation. so if you've been keeping the commandments by grace because of your faith for a little but another has been keeping the commandments their whole life for any other reason, you will be first although you were last.

[i]St. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter II, Verse viii[/i]
For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

But what keeps faith alive?

[i]The Epistle of Saint James, Chapter II, Verse xvii[/i]
So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

---works keep faith alive---grace works through faith---grace saves---


if you don't have works, you don't have faith
if you don't have faith, you've got nothing for grace to work through, you're not saved

the rich man was told to sell all he has and give it to the poor (a WORK), he did not, his faith was dead. he went away sad.

[dairygirl4u2c]

only three takeerses?

[Guest Aluigi]

Anyway, I repeat:

[quote][b]I have been saved[/b] [i]Rom. 8:24; Eph. 2:5,8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5[/i]
[b]I am being saved[/b] [i]1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9[/i]
[b]I will be saved in the end[/b] <if I persevere[i] Mt. 10:22; Mt. 24:13[/i] and work out my salvation in fear and trembling [i]Php. 2:12[/i]> [i]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13; Mark 16:16; Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Heb. 9:28; James 5:15[/i] [/quote]

Edited November 17, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

it's an odd thing to have to answer unless you're in the OSAS croud... cuz we Catholics have HOPE in our eternal salvation, not assurance.

[jesussaves]

[quote]it's an odd thing to have to answer unless you're in the OSAS croud... cuz we Catholics have HOPE in our eternal salvation, not assurance. [/quote]

Then you should easily say maybe. I think you feel odd, because you are not assured of your salvation. It makes you uncomfortable to push the button and admit it.